The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

While my feelings about the barbarian Gauls are not as strong as that of senator Augustus Verginius, I agree with his motion 5.5 nonetheless.

We have killed countless Gauls. Thousands upon thousands. The final tally will be made soon, but it is probably in excess of 5000 dead warriors.
At the moment they are crushed, utterly and decisively. Yet still I attacked them, even this spring, as they can rise just as quickly and threaten us again. They need to be beaten down consistently. The only time we can trust them is when they are on their knees. I say we raid their territory as if we were demons from the infernal hells themselves.
Not, my senators, because I am bloodthirsty. But because it must be done. If we merely guard our borders, the next generation will once again be faced with the horror and menace of hordes of thousands of wild tribesmen.

There are however some issues I would like to raise.

Even the savage tribesmen will one day realize the futility of resisting our might. Therefore I propose motion 5.6

Motion 5.6 : We will offer the Gauls the possibility of becoming a protectorate on a regular basis during our pogrom against them (offering any cities we capture and they have not retaken yet back, except Gergovia)

Also, there is a strategic (walled) town just west of Massilia. I propose motion 5.7

Motion 5.7 : We will strive to take possession of this single Gaul settlement Gergovia, as it will be an ideal base for our raiding of Gaul. This settlement we will keep.

I also vehemently oppose motion 5.2 as it now stands. It will be a ludicrously costly offensive, which will cripple our strained economy.

Motion 5.3 is one I would like to second, but again, we can hardly support the transportation fleet we have now.

Motion 5.4 I can sympathize with, but I do not see the point. We have walls, and armories already, and (almost) every city that can build roads has them already. A better proposal would be to stimulate the growth of our villages in Cispine Gaul so that they can build roads. This is why I stimulated colonization efforts there.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: With respect, I do not see why an expedition to Africa would be "ludicrously expensive". Consular I Army is ready to be deployed there. We have the transports. Looting Carthage should provide a tidy sum, if that is the wish of the First Consul. Alternatively, the trade and taxes from the large Carthaginian settlements should be sufficient to pay for the modest garrisons needed to occupy them.

Indeed, the tightness of our economy is largely due to the size of armed forces. They have doubled in upkeep over the past 5 years, while our income has risen somewhat less. I suspect many of our garrisons could be pruned and the manpower released used to support further conquest. It is not clear that we would have to recruit more men for an invasion.

On a point of information, I was pleased to learn that Numidia - as well as Iberia - is currently at war with Carthage. Do the vultures detect our foe is on her knees?

[Glaucus]

Gentlemen, I must ask some questions to Senator Augustus Verginus, regading his plan of action.

Why would attacking Gaul, a nation with countless hoards and deep forests to hide them in, be better for the Republic then attacking Carthage, whose population and society is more advanced then that of Gaul?

Troops are already ready to attack Carthage, and our finest General is ready to lead them, and you have already pointed out the distance from Rome to Gaul and the problem it would take to move our troops there, so how would an invasion of Carthage be any more costly then that of Gaul?

I thank you Senators, and hope you see the logic in attacking. And Senator Augustus Verginus, do you not see the reason in going south accross the sea? There is no reason to invade north, our finest troops are ready to invade Afrika, unless you think you are a more able gerneral then our friend Quintus is?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Gentlemen, there is an easy way to go about this.

We simply land Quintus' army near Carthage. Eventually the Carthaginians will send a large army out to stop us. Quintus meets them in glorious battle, defeat them as I know he will, and then the Carthaginians will sure for peace. We can get rich without having to worry about maintaining order in Afrika.

Motion 5.8: Quintus' Consul 1 Army is to land in Afrika near Carthage and engage the inevitable Carthaginian defense. If the Carthaginians are destroyed then a diplomat is to be sent to Carthage demanding a ceasefire for money.

[Ignoramus]

No, Senators. If we are to attack Carthage, Iberia must be conquered first. Africa is too strong.

[TinCow]

Gentlemen, I must ask some questions to Senator Augustus Verginus, regading his plan of action.

Why would attacking Gaul, a nation with countless hoards and deep forests to hide them in, be better for the Republic then attacking Carthage, whose population and society is more advanced then that of Gaul?

Troops are already ready to attack Carthage, and our finest General is ready to lead them, and you have already pointed out the distance from Rome to Gaul and the problem it would take to move our troops there, so how would an invasion of Carthage be any more costly then that of Gaul?

I thank you Senators, and hope you see the logic in attacking. And Senator Augustus Verginus, do you not see the reason in going south accross the sea? There is no reason to invade north, our finest troops are ready to invade Afrika, unless you think you are a more able gerneral then our friend Quintus is?

Surely Senator, you have not forgotten that our ships can transport but a single unit each. Even if we were to assemble all 8 of our current ships and did not lose a single one in combat with the enemy, we would not be able to transport Senator Quintus and his army to the shores of Carthage in a single season. Do you really think it wise to leave a mere 8 cohort force stranded without hope of relief and without any means of retreat when there are two and a half full Consular sized Carthaginian armies within a single season's march of Carthage? Perhaps you have faith that Senator Quintus can conquer of all of Africa with such a small force. Do you also have faith that the aging Senator, who is nearly 60, will not die of natural causes while on campaign, thus leaving our armies leaderless and without hope of personal direction in combat? (No disrespect intended to the honorable Quintus.)

As for transporting an army to Gaul, this would take no more time than such an expedition to Carthage. However, since Massilia is secured and the river crossings guarded by Legio III, our forces would be safe while they waited for their full strength to arrive over the course of multiple seasons.

Yes, ravaging Gaul would be less profitable than ravaging Carthage. However, what have the Carthaginians done to deserve such devestation? This war started as a mere trade dispute. We have annexed many of their provinces and defeated countless numbers of their armies. What crime have they committed that is so vile as to deserve wholesale slaughter? If you instead propose occupying their cities, my manifesto makes my opinion on that perfectly clear.

The Gauls on the otherhand are beasts. They started this war by invading our lands. They sacked Rome barely one hundred years ago. They do not understand civilized life and they have no respect for Roman values. They are deserving of a bloody end.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Afrika is too strong? Exactly how limitless are their armies? Consul Quintus has repeatedly destroyed Carthaginian armies in the last ten years, most notably stunning victories at Aleria and Sardinia recently! I think they will have one army at most deployed and ready for a fight.

After all, they are also engaged against Numidia and I believe, Iberia. Carthage has limits to its power. They are weak now.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senators,

My final report is finished and I will briefly outline our situation in more detail.



The republic of Carthage is in dire straits as they are now at war with the kingdom of Numidia, Iberia and the republic of Rome. Even worse, they are losing ground in this war to the Numidians, their former vassals. Their only allies are Gaul. They are in deep trouble, but they have lost the disadvantage of a multi-front war.

The Gauls are allied with the republic of Carthage, Illyria and Thrace and at war with the republic of Rome. This war is turning our very badly for them. They've lost half of what they had in men and land.

The Greek cities are allied with the kingdom of Macedon, the kingdom of Pontus and the kingdom of Bactria and they are at war with the republic of Rome. They are doing very well. Their military is the strongest around.

The Illyrians are allied with the Ptolemaic empire, Gaul and Thrace. They are at war with the kingdom of Macedon. They are having a great time as they are slowly defeating the kingdom of Macedon together with Thrace and they are recovering their lost ground.

The Thracians are allied with Gaul, Illyria and the Sarmatians. They are at war with the Germans and the kingdom of Macedon. Thrace has become a local superpower and stands a good chance of defeating the Germans and the Macedonians. After which, who will be their next victim ?

The Iberians have ties with no one and are at war with the republic of Carthage, but they have become as powerful as Thrace. So now we have a superpower to our west and east.



As you can see, our territory has increased dramatically once again. Where we were once a small citystate, we have now become the most powerful state in our vicinity. Unfortunately, all this territory has to be defended and as such our military has had to increase dramatically as well.



And so, even tough we have invested 70-80 % of our budget in financial improvements every season, we can see how this has been affecting our financial situation.





On the positive side, our estimated profits are increasing once more.

Military losses on all sides :
Roman killed or wounded : 1339

Gaul dead : 8555
Republic of Carthage dead : 3662
Rebel dead : 250

Total enemy dead : 12467

I would advise any future consul not to lower our military complement. Seven legions is the minimum military force I would recommend for our nation's size and threats. Men will say we can disband some of the legions, but what if, such as is now occuring, a rebellion breaks out ? A legion might have to leave a border unguarded, if that was feasible to begin with, to march for months on end to reach the rebels. Also, there is the question of reserves. If we do happen to suffer a dramatic military defeat we will have the spare forces to cope with it.
We can not expand much further northward even if we wished, for the simple reason that we cannot build roads untill we develop Cispine Gaul. This will take a very long time to do. Without roads, a distant settlement would be almost undefendable as we could not resupply it reliably. We could expand south, but in addition to the forces required to capture territory there, we would also need troops to guard it. We can hardly afford to do this, except by abandoning our economic development. Here also the problem of resupplying our troops would be a major problem.
For those who would say that the sale of loot from the captured cities would pay for this, I agree, but then we would be left with another bunch of captured and worthless moneydraining cities. I would not recommend this. I do advocate a plundering expedition. Whether north or south does not matter to me greatly. Our more dangerous enemy is to the north, our more wealthy plunder lies in the south. I suggest we strike north.

The one thing I would like to make the senate aware of is that the republic of Carthage and the Gauls are not our greatest threats at the moment. Iberia and Thrace are.

I wish you wisdom, and I hereby reliquish my symbols of office to the senate. It was an honour to serve the state.

OOC : savegame 270-2-start.zip

[Glaucus]

I have just looked through The First Consul's report. Can you not see the massive Gallic army just outside our reach? As I am sure you can all see, the Carthaginian homeland is lightly defended. I am confedent that Quintus with only seven units could take Carthage from the enemy. It does, after all, only have a five unit garrison and is leader-less! I urge my fellow senators to support an attack on Carthage, it is clearly the easier and richer of our two prospect targets.

[TinCow]

I have just looked through The First Consul's report. Can you not see the massive Gallic army just outside our reach? As I am sure you can all see, the Carthaginian homeland is lightly defended. I am confedent that Quintus with only seven units could take Carthage from the enemy. It does, after all, only have a five unit garrison and is leader-less! I urge my fellow senators to support an attack on Carthage, it is clearly the easier and richer of our two prospect targets.

Clearly, Senator, you did not 'investigate' the area around Thapsus where Carthage has two and a half full Consular sized armies. Nor did you 'investigate' the Gallic territories, or you would have seen that other than the large army on our border, the Gauls have no other significant military force at all except for a large garrison in their capital. Nor did you examine our intelligence reports on the Gallic and Punic forces, or you would have seen that the Gallic army is composed almost entirely of unarmored, untrained spearmen while the Punic armies are largely composed of armored and trained phalanxes. Nor did you keep up to date on intelligence reports, or would have noticed that not only does Carthage have a general leading it's garrison, but two of it's defending units are elite Sacred Band infantry, whom even our own Triarii rightly fear. Nor did you even look at the military power chart that was provided by Senator Aemilius, for if you had you would have seen that Carthage has nearly double the number of men under arms as does Gaul.

Tell me Senator, when concluding that Carthage is a weaker and easier target than Gaul, exactly what did you look at?

[Ignoramus]

Most senators prefer wealth, even if costs the lives of thousands of Romans. The Gauls have been the major threat, as they have invaded Italy three times. Carthage, on the other hand, has only invaded Corsica. Which of the two, noble Senators, is more dangerous?

Could you post screenshots of the actual campaign map, instead of just the minimap?

[shifty157]

Our empire finds itself larger and more powerful than it ever has before yet somehow we are never quite powerful enough.

Now again we senators must choose who will lead us over the coming five years. These five years will arguably be the most difficult our armies and our empire has yet faced. No longer are we simply battling the far-flung outlying provinces of our enemies but now it has come time strike for the heart and strike we must.

I will here upon this floor offer myself to the will of the republic and her people as a candidate to become her sword and her shield as the next Consul.

I believe that it is best that we leave as few armies unused as possible. Our treasury is taxed enough that it does not need the burden of paying troops who sit and rest and do not work at their trade as every other citizen does.

Some senators believe it is best to strike the Carthaginians who seem beset from all sides. The once proud empire is crumbling and it has now been reduced to its core homelands. Yet it grips tightly to its once glory fights savagely with the hope of reattaining it.

Some senators believe it is best to strike the barbaric Gauls who we so recently pushed back across the Alps. They now sit and brood in their forests and it is true that they will never cease their attacks against us as long as we still control those lands which they claimed their own.

I on the other hand believe that we should attack both. Our armies are stronger and more numerous than they have ever been before and we possess more than enough men to wage a successful war on both fronts. It is very true that both enemies are exceptionally strong but our generals have already shown their prowess in battle against more enemy armies than I care to remember and I believe them and the men under their command more than able to take the war to the enemy heartlands.

You may ask how I propose to invade Carthage with only a fleet of eight ships. I very well know that eight units cannot hold out against forty. These armies of Carthage however are stationed around their capital where they rightly believe our blow will fall. In this assumption they are sorely mistaken. We shall sail from Melite directly south to the outlying Carthaginian provinces. Eight ships can ferry an entire consular army from Melite to Afrika before the massive armies stationed around Carthage can even march halfway to our camp. From there it is a simple march with a consular army up the coast defeating any armies and conquering any cities that we come across until finally the Carthaginian home and fortress of Carthage herself is made subject to our battering rams. Indeed such an endevour would take quite a bit of time but we are not unaccustomed to patience and perseverance

In Gaul I would propose a modest conquest. The pace of the invasion would be cautious and with great care as we could not afford a devastating Gaulish ambush. Beyond the Alps, the forests are vast and thick providing ample opportunity for hiding. Our loyal spies will be our crutch in this treacherous land as we advance from city to city as frog would hop from pad to pad.

Our main thrust would be against the Carthaginians with our invasion of Gaul being supplementary and not entirely necessary. New lands will of course brings more incomes into our treasury and this is something we very much need. Within Italy we must continue to build up our newly acquired lands in the North as they have yet to reach their full potential.

Note that I will note increase the size of our military unless an extreme need arose. I would continue to recruit troops only to maintain the current strength of our forces and to garrison any newly captured settlements.

You perhaps may be wondering what makes me as a man better suited for our situation than other candidates. Militarily I have fought and won against both Carthage and the Gauls. I have seen with my own eyes the capabilities of both of our foes. I have heard the horrible Gaulish warchant issuing from the depths of the forest that is said to have driven lesser men insane. I have charged down the glittering spears of the Carthaginian phalanx. Financially I am still widely regarded as without peer in all our empire in the area of successful management. Where some men have spent their entire lives with only a sword in their hand and others have spent theirs with only a pencil, I have spent mine with both and now I am offering my services to the republic that I may benefit it and her people.

[flyd]

What follows is the manifesto of Tiberius Coruncanius.

I will once more offer the Senate the option of an invasion of Africa. The fleet needs to be augmented with a few warships, but is nearly ready in its current state. A force of consular army strength in Africa would be more than sufficient to defeat the Carthaginians, and we already have sufficient troops to assemble such a force without depleting garrisons. An invasion of Africa would warrant a halt in the Gallic offensive, for it is never wise to fight a two-front war, and Masilia is the perfect place to do that. If the Gauls wish to accept a ceasefire, then so should we, but that is merely a formality. In any case, a sufficient defensive force would be left at Masilia. Now you know what I would do if I were elcted Consul, and I will now move on to explaining why I believe it is the correct course of action.

The Gauls are no longer a significant threat. They have been pushed far from Rome, across the mountains. Their armies are of low quality, we destroyed most of them, and we have an easily defensible position. Furthermore, there is nothing of great value in transalpine Gaul, and to get anything out of those settlements, we would have to spend much money developing them. For those reasons, it is no longer wise to expand into Gaul, and is very easy to securely hold the border.

The Carthaginians are completely different, however. Their navy still freely sails the seas. As we have seen, they can land large armies wherever they want. Because they're unambitious and not very tactically smart, they chose to do that in Corsica, but they could have just as easily done that in Italy or Sicily. Their armies are of high quality and numerous, and we have a completely undefensible position, as we cannot challenge them on the seas. Now, one thing we could do is destroy their navy, but that would be expensive, risky, and time-consuming, as we'd need a mighty fleet. However, we already have a mighty army, and we would instead do better to attack them on land. Furthermore, African settlements are of much greater value. They would be easier to develop, and have potential for trade.

As far as other things go, I would make a maximum effort to upgrade the fleet. Thanks to Aemilius, we have the necessary facilities in Syracuse. I would put them to work immediately. With only Syracuse working, the fleet upgrade process will be slow, but that will mean that our economy won't be suddenly drained. In time, we will have a powerful fleet. However, I do not plan to postpone the invasion due to a lack of heavy ships.

We have dealt with Gaul, and it is now time to stike at Carthage. But we must not merely make a half effort. Our strike must be decisive, and we must not waste further resources on the Gauls. I believe we can achieve a swift victory over Carthage.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: It is good once again to see such clear differences in the programmes for candidates for First Consul.

On another matter, after reflection, I have decided to ammend:

Motion #5.1: This House grants First Consul Lucius Aemilius a triumph. This is on account of his successful conquest of Cisalpine Gaul, Massilia and the island settlements of Melte, Aleria and Caralis with relatively little loss. It notes the generous role of the First Consul in providing opportunities for other members of the Lower House to give battle on Rome's behalf.

If anyone is unconvinced by this motion, I urge them to look at the record of battles under the First Consul's rule. Our forces have slain over 12,000 enemies - twice what was done under my own rule. The fact that the First Consul often delegated command is even more to his credit, as it ensures that we have a cadre of battle hardened senior generals to call upon in years to come.

I hope Senator Verginius will still second this motion.

I still require an additional seconder for both motion 5.1 and 5.2.

[Braden]

A messenger arrives in the senate:

“Noble Senators of the Republic, I ask leave to read a message from Senator Decius Curtius who is in Afrika at this time.”

….the messenger waits a short time until nodded to proceed by the Senate Speaker. Unrolling the parchment he begins to read in a clear concise voice….

“Senate of Rome, I stand here in the desert after leaving a broken city. Carthago’s population are full of fear and all about me I hear whispers of a familiar name – Quintus – Quintus the Destroyer, Quintus the Devastator, Quintus the Murderer…….all these names I have heard the local plebeians mention in lowered tones.

Unrest grows as does they panic, the population is only held in check with the iron grip of King Hasdrubal and his secret police force.

The greatest generals Carthage had to put to field have been killed in short order by Former Consul Quintus and his victorious Legions. All I see around me is fear of Impending doom and Quintus’s march into Carthago itself!

King Hasdrubal continues his reign helped not only by his secret police but by his navy. The Navy continues to heap scorn upon us and nourish his delusions of grandeur with their assurances that they can transport what remains of his armies to any part of our lands and strike us a death blow.

I continue to investigate the details of what remains of the Carthage land-based military forces but I ask the good Senate to support any motions that would bring the Carthage Plebeians greatest fears to life.

Carthage is weak and in great fear, I ask that we strike at Carthago with great speed.

I beg the Senates apologies that I am not aware of our own military and financial ability at this time and that I presume much in my call for invasion. All I can say is that IF we wish Carthage to no longer be a threat in the future it is within the next year or so that we must strike her and defeat her.

I am prepared to undertake whatever missions in these lands that the Consul deems required to further aid such a choice and I dare say that, accompanied as I am by the good natured Placus Laelius, the pair of us can do much to path the way for such an undertaking.

The Senates Servant,

Decius Curtius”

The messenger finishes and re-rolls the scroll……

….”I am required to ask if there is any response to this message and I will await the Senates pleasure before returning in the next two days with such response as the Senate deems is needed for my master.”

[TinCow]

[QUINTUS]: I hope Senator Verginius will still second this motion.

Senator Quintus, you can most certainly count on my continuing support.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senators,

Last night I was haunted by dreams of war. I saw again the deaths of women and children that I have witnessed these last few years. I am convinced that the Gods send me these dreams as a warning that needless bloodshed should be avoided in our campaigns. I know some men call me hugely superstitious, but nevertheless I shall be forced to withdraw my support for motion 5.5 unless it is reformulated to :

Motion 5.5: For the duration of the 270 - 265 Consulship only, the Consul may massacre enslave the population of any Gallic settlement he wishes and knock down all barbaric religious structures, provided that the settlement is abandoned after the deed is done.

If we enslave the Gauls we will be doing them a kindness as we take them into a civilized culture and we need the extra population badly. I see no harm in bringing them to a better life. I would also suggest changing the sentence all barbaric religious structures to all barbaric structures, but this is not a big issue for me. If senator Verginius will not reformulate this motion I will propose a motion myself. I ask the senator if he is willing to make these changes.

[SwordsMaster]

[QUINTUS]: First Consul Aemilius, I believe it would be better if you proposed an alternative motion to 5.2, as that was clearly intended to be a mandate for conquest.

I would also note that extermination of settlements is an act so extreme that this house was constituted with a strict prohibition on its commission. Only reluctantly, did I consent to Carthage being exempted from that prohibition and indeed I have ammended motion 5.2 so that so severe a measure is not mandated. Carthage is a great city and a great prize - few other cities will ever rival its size or potential. To take and then abandon such a prize seems perverse.

I agree. There is much more profit to be made from a city than from a graveyard.

Senator Swordsmaster, on motion 5.4, I believe much of Dalmatia is occupied by Macedon. As such I would class your proposal along with that of taking the war to Greece as a step too far at the current moment.

This is why I requested an updated version of the maps. I do not wish to take war to Greece, and therefore I will not insist in the occupatio of Dalmatia. I stand by my request of building a fleet.

Also on motion 5.3, I would note that all settlements anywhere in the known world that are capable of having walls already have them in some form. The lack of defensible walls is a fact of geography, not a decision of ours.

Those cities unable to protect themselves need protection, so I will amend the motion to include forts to protect those cities that cannot build their own defences.


These are the amended versions of the motions cited:

Motion 5.3: Build a fleet. This means we need to support one. All possible improvements should be built in Italy to support a greater number of ships and soldiers.

Motion 5.4: Consolidate. We need roads. Walls. Armouries. Cities that cannot build walls, should be within 1 turns marching distance of a strongly garrisoned fort.

[Avicenna]

King? My dear senators, he is most definitely not a king. In spite of the Carthaginians' difference in ways to ours, they are still a republic, if less so than ours.

Senators, I disagree about the enslaving of Gauls. Do us Romans truly want the filthy barbarians dirtying our splendid countryside of Italia and our civilised brothers in Sicily? Also, we need not destroy all barbaric structures, as these can be refined by our expert craftsmen, trained in Rome herself. I propose that we batter the Gauls into subjugation, forcing the status of protectorate upon them. If they refuse to comply, we will be justified in the annexation of Gaul, or at least the seizure and extermination of their key settlements of Georgovia and Alesia.

[shifty157]

I must agree with my son. Destroying settlement and killing its populace is unnecessarily harsh. It is true that the looting may provide us with small amounts of immediate gold but in the long run we are only hurting ourselves as eventually these settlements will no doubt be ours. Much more can be gained over time by the occupation of settlements and the generation of new tax incomes. Also this allows us to spread out the burden of military upkeep so that we can free up more funds from our existing settlements.

I do not belive in abandoning a city unless strategically necessary. If our blood has been spilled on its streets then it is ours. I will not say that the blood of our men has been given in vain. Also the Gaulish land beyond the Alps is treacherous and I would not risk crossing it several times to simply "raid" a town once or twice. The risk of a complete ambush is far too prevalent and we have been lucky so far in that respect. As long as we are in Gaulish territory we must stay within the safety of cities as long as possible and moving only in force and with a defined purpose.

At this point I would also like to give my wholehearted support to Quintus' motion 5.1. Lucius is very deserving of this triumph.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: I would like to speak in support of our Princeps Senatus elect, Publius Laevinius, as the choice of next First Consul. I urge Senators to vote for this candidate for three reasons.

First, his manifesto is the most ambitious and exciting of all those proposed. We have many fine members of the Lower House eager to see battle. Operations in Gaul and Africa offer the most opportunities for these members to see battle. While the initial invasions may largely be led by the First Consul, other Legates and Tribunes would be called upon to defend our new conquests and garrison our homelands. The shrewd Laevinius is surely correct to say that it is a great waste to see our large armies in mere garrison duty. Even more so, it would be a waste to see our fine generals so frustrated.

Second, Legate Laevinius's battles against the Gauls have shown tremendous tactical ability. I know we have many commanders of great talent in the Senate but I doubt any could have done better than Laevinius. I certainly blanched when I heard of the gestatae and Chosen warriors marching in their hundreds for the ford outside Massilia. And the good Legate had only a mere legion with no alae to hold them. Based on his consistent performance, I have no doubt in Laevinius's ability to strike into the heart of Gaul - possibly even conquering it entirely during his term in office.

Third, the Princeps Senatus elect has showed great wisdom and understanding on matters of grand strategy. For example, it was he who identified Massilia as a valuable chokepoint in our war on Gaul. His plan for the invasion of Africa is very well thought through. And his recent comments on the folly of the raiding strategy proposed by some only add to my great esteem for his judgement.

Senators, the other candidates are also most worthy individuals and I do not doubt that they will serve Rome well as First Consuls in due course. But now is the moment for Publius Laevinius and I urge you to rally around his standard!

[Craterus]

Senators, this constant warring and need for bloodshed has me wondering what makes us better than the Gauls and other such barbarians?

When will our brave legions return home? I'm sure many have sons and daughters that they have never even met. When will these men be reunited with their families? I seem to be the only person longing for a time where we can have peace.

Yet still, you all call for an invasion of the never-ending woodland of Gaul, an invasion of the deserts of Afrika. Why must we conquer these worthless places? Italia is the perfect place to build a villa (perhaps even a vineyard too), so why not build one and enjoy life now that Rome is strong.

I gather that our economy is in a worse state than 5 years ago? Surely something can be interpreted from this. Constant conquest does not fill our coffers as much as some of you may think. I hope for a few years of peace in which we can concentrate on building up trade, encouraging prosperity but most of all, enjoying our lives in the wealth we are likely to gain from a time of peace.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: May I remind the Senate that we currently have eight motions tabled but only one has two seconders. The deadline for proposing motions is in 24 hours. Unless some existing motions are seconded, we will have a very quiet period of voting.

[shifty157]

Senators. I would like to unveil this Tapestry that I have commisioned in honor of our two previous Consuls Quintus and Lucius. The tapestry displays their expansion of our empire. Quintus' gains are obviously in RED and Lucius' gains are in BLUE. I look forward to updating the tapestry for all future Consuls.

[Glaucus]

Tell me Senator, when concluding that Carthage is a weaker and easier target than Gaul, exactly what did you look at?

I have read the report from Decius Curtius, our spymaster in Afrika. He has pointed out that if we delay, Carthage will only grow stronger. Why should we not attack her now, while she is broken apart by wars in Numidia and Iberia? Carthage is a strong nation; if we delay she will grow stronger and take Iberia and Numidia. Would you rather attack Carthage now, while she is still small, or later, when she has all of Afrika and Iberia under her control? Just because Carthage is powerful does not mean we should not fight her. In fact, it should push Carthage up on our lists of possible conquests. Are my fellow representatives of Rome frightened by a challenge? If so then attack Gaul, and impose your will on weak barbarians. If you want glory and more power for the Republic, then we must take Carthage and teach her citizens the honor of Romans. I urge my fellow Senators to support motion # 5.2, it is the most sensible motion tabled. Carthage is home to far larger cities then Gaul, I say let Gaul sit beyond the Alps, let Gaul fight Spain and threaten Carthage even more. Carthage is our strongest adversary; we must strike hard and fast as soon as possible!

Senator, why would we send our legions into Gaul, when a larger more powerful foe is sitting at our backdoor?

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senator Publius Laevinius, that is truly a magnficent gift to this house. I only fear that it will incite future consuls to reckless conquests in order to see their colour on that map. Nevertheless, I would ask our senate librarian to find an hornoured spot for this tapestry in the senate library.

I applaud the quality of the men who have stepped forward.

Augustus Verginius, the coolheaded general who survived Lucco's ambush. He plans no more conquests, but punitative expeditions that will fill our empty coffers and submit the Gauls. I see his wisdom, but worry about wanton slaughter.

Tiberius Coruncanius, the man who halted the Gaul advance into our lands at Arretium. He thinks it is time to overthrow Carthage, but sees no need to go to war in Gaul. A middle position between the other two candidates and realistic.

Publius Laevinius, the stalwart commander who crushed Meriadoc at Massilia. He plans the conquest of Carthage, and Gaul as well. I applaud his zeal and ambition, but doubt the feasability.

The truth is, my lords, that each of these candidates agendas is possible. Our army is at peak strength, and our economy weak, but it is still growing.

The ambitious plans of Publius Laevinius will break our fragile economy. The conquest of Carthage will be expensive, and if we are victorious, the rebellious cities we will have conquered will offer but little revenue due to the high unrest which will plague them. At the same time undertaking the conquest of Gaul borders on lunacy. Our armies will spread, weaken and die in the vastness of the Gaul forests or across the sea in Afrika. We will be unable to supply them decently and will run risks of rebellion in the provinces left undefended. After five years, our economy will be in shambles and our armies weakened even if we succeed in all these conquests.

Tiberius Coruncanius is a better planner. He wants to strike a bold and decisive strike to shatter Carthage forever. We can do this, my lords, but I think it is a futile waste of our menpower and resources. The logistics will be very complex, dangerous and expensive. We will need to send vast amounts of troops to secure victory and who will guard our homeland in the meantime ? We cannot afford yet more troops.

So, with reservations, I support the wisdom of Augustus Verginius, who understands that we have much more to fear from Iberia and Thrace than we have from Carthage. He sees the moment is NOW to make the Gauls submit to our power. Hundreds of Romans have lost their lives in the wars against Gaul. Will we neglect their sacrifce to go after Carthage, while the hordes gather once more ?
NO, I say ! Let Augustus Verginius have his way and pulverize the remains of the Gaul nation ! Eventually, they will submit to a protectorate and the threat will be ended forever. We will not need to conquer their useless and undefendable lands, and they will pay protection money to Roma. While he is doing this, he will strengthen our country. We have five years of carefree time now. It will most likely not come quickly again. Let us use this time to make our country the strongest in Europe.
The one man who sees the wisdom of this course of action is Augustus Verginius. I will stand by him, and encourage all of you to do the same for the sake of our country, not for the sake of glory on the battlefield.



I would also like to ask the senate speaker to summarize all the motions and their current supporters for the sake of encouraging debate.

Hail Roma !

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]:

I would also like to ask the senate speaker to summarize all the motions and their current supporters for the sake of encouraging debate.

Normally the scribes will only summarise motions that have the requisite two seconders. However, given that none of the motions (apart from 5.1) have two seconders, I have complied with your request for the reason you give. The list of motions may be found in the first post in this thread.

[shifty157]

The ambitious plans of Publius Laevinius will break our fragile economy. The conquest of Carthage will be expensive, and if we are victorious, the rebellious cities we will have conquered will offer but little revenue due to the high unrest which will plague them. At the same time undertaking the conquest of Gaul borders on lunacy. Our armies will spread, weaken and die in the vastness of the Gaul forests or across the sea in Afrika. We will be unable to supply them decently and will run risks of rebellion in the provinces left undefended. After five years, our econmy will be in shambles and our armies weakened even if we succeed in all these conquests.

I dont believe so.

I believe senator that your strategy for expansion was rather cautious. You expanded only when knowing full well that victory was guaranteed. While this is a commendable strategy it is by no means necessary. We have all seen and heard of what our armies and generals can accomplish and I see no reason for this trend to suddenly stop. Our current standing armies are more than capable of defeating the standing armies of both Gaul and Carthage at the same time.

I also realize that despite your optimism the gauls and the carthaginians will continue to attack our lands on a regular basis. You back a candidate who proposes raiding into Gaulish territory but tell me how much gold do you really believe this will bring to our treasury? The Gauls control only six more cities worth conquering. Of these only three of them are within reach to raid and then return to the safety of the Alps in a reasonable amount of time. Granted the first time you raid these cities you may carry away thousands of denarii in gold but what after that? Will you continue to raid the same cities over and over and every time after bringing home only a few coins? The Gauls will not stand idly by. They will fight our armies and ambush them and wittle them down every time. And for what? To give the treasury a single quick golden high that disappears thereafter? The gauls cannot rebuild their cities overnight. Indeed they probably will not be able to rebuild them to their current level until well after this coming five year term.

So you raid the cities once and you get your gold. The Roman casualties are justifiable. Then what? Raid the burnt out ruins again taking more casualties every time? Will you bring the ashes back to Rome and fill the treasury with them?

The Gauls will not submit to becoming a protectorate just as we would never subject ourselves to such humiliation. The only way to eliminate the Gaul threat permanently is to crush it and take its land. Or would you prefer every Consul to defend the Alps against the constant Gaul attacks to the end of time? I dont know about the other senators but I would quickly grow weary of such constant attacks and casualties without any effort to alleviate the situation.

In short this strategy of raiding the Gaulish towns would work well for perhaps a year at which point it would fail miserably because there would be no more towns left worth raiding. It is the same with farmers. If they planted too many crops on their land they may reap the rewards of an exceptionally bountiful harvest the first year but for the next several years the land will be wasted and the farmer will be unable to harvest any more crops from it. So while the farmer enjoys the plenty the first season, he suffers for years afterward while his neighbor who takes care to regulate his planting, though he does not reap such large rewards immediatly, finds that a normal harvest every year is much more desirable and much more lucrative.

[Avicenna]

Father, I congratulate you in managing to get some skilled Greeks to put together this masterpiece! This will surely show the world that even in so new an art is Rome the greatest!

Back to business. Firstly, to answer my father's query. I believe Brother-in-law Verginus' aim is to cripple Gaul and force a protectorate status, which they might we accept. You must remember, my father, that these savages have not the honour of us Romans, and should not be viewed as equals. Even if they do not submit, it will destroy another threat to our security, and enable us to use more of our armies against the mighty Phoenicans. The world must first see that stinking barbarians will be crushed, and then they shall fear us. In this fear, we will ben able to stride into the Phoenican heartlands, to take down the quivering Carthaginians when the time comes.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Your son Decivs Laevinivs sees the wisdom of the plan to force the Gauls to submit now that they are weak and the Cartheginians occupied.
Some interesting points to ponder :
In three years we have slain 8500 Gauls on the battlefield. Yet their armed strength has only dropped by 4000, and is again on the increase. Even worse, the quality of their troops is increasing, with chosen warriors and gestaete appearing more often in their ranks. They will have regained their strength in just three years and probably will be even stronger then than they were three years ago. We cannot wait for that.
If we occupy Gaul, we will have increased the length of our border by a factor of ten. Even worse, we will share those borders with the two most powerful nations in Europe, Thrace and Iberia, and the ferocious Germans. If they turn on us, we cannot possibly defend against them. We would be fighting a 2-front war, with no supply routes back to our recruiting ground as we can not build roads in Cispine Gaul for quite some time. Reinforcements would take years to arrive. Just the Thracians alone outnumber us comfortably. We will lose large amounts of troops and will eventually end up where we are now, behind defensible border.
To attempt the conquest of Gaul, instead of her submission, is folly.
And if, in your worse case scenario, the Gauls will never submit, we will have gained their riches and looted their towns. We can retreat whenever we wish a leave behind an enemy who will no rise again in three years, but in thirty years or perhaps never. Then we might turn our attention to Carthage knowing that our north is free from at least the Gaul threat.