Viking Units overpowered?

[Sethik]

The only reason I can see of them losing their affect is them being flanked and surrounded and even then they'll put up a pretty decent fight. The Cumans and the Byzs might be able to do that with their superior cavalry, but a balanced army should also have its wings protected with cavalry. If their flanks are protected they can turn into a real meat grinder.

[Scurvy]

hmm, i think javelins are very effective against them, but its hard to get more than 2 or 3 volleys to shoot in one go :D

[King Ragnar]

The only reason I can see of them losing their affect is them being flanked and surrounded and even then they'll put up a pretty decent fight. The Cumans and the Byzs might be able to do that with their superior cavalry, but a balanced army should also have its wings protected with cavalry. If their flanks are protected they can turn into a real meat grinder.

True but what good cavalry do the norse have in good numbers? They wouldnt put up much of a fight against the superior horses of the Steppes

Also you have the Cuman Infantry and steppe infantry armed with bows that should be able to inflict some damage before they engage.

But i do love the Huscarls as well i think i have about 5 merc units of them in my cuman army

[caravel]

The Viking Huscarles are quite a bit overpowered in my opinion. In vanilla MTW the standard Viking units were some of the best infantry available in early. With these at your disposal there is no real need for FMAA. The Danish Huscarles added to the medieval campaign by the VI expansion seem to inbalance the game.

I was playing a VI campaign as the picts (again!) a few days ago, which I gave up on eventually. The Vikings invaded Domon with all their royals and I decided to try and isolate them there and counter attack, and began sinking as many of their longboats as possible. This took a while of course. Eventually I sent an aprox 800 strong force of pictish cavarly (+1 valour) crossbows, celtic warriors (+1 valour) and some spearmen to deal with an approx 200 strong force of huscarles and thralls. The crossbows shot the 1 complete huscarle unit down to about 70-80 men. Then they pulled back, the Celtic warriors (about 2 units) then charged at them downhill, and the Pictish cavalry flanked (2 units). It took a while for the thralls and another battered unit of huscarles to join up, but when they had done, the first unit had done it's work, and just a handful of my men were routing off the field...

All my tactics seemed fine, but these supermen don't care about tactics. I've charged huscarles at Feudal Knights uphill and won easily. The problem is that they kill so much and gain valour quite quickly, they're also elite, so routing is rarely an issue. Add a six star general to that and you've got an almost unstoppable killing machine.

[Mooks]

The funnest thing to do with the danish is to raid. Raid all of france, hungary, germany,maybe poland, then just conquer russia and hold on to that.

(raiding requires a little bit of thought and challenge)

[Odin]

The Viking Huscarles are quite a bit overpowered in my opinion. In vanilla MTW the standard Viking units were some of the best infantry available in early. With these at your disposal there is no real need for FMAA. The Danish Huscarles added to the medieval campaign by the VI expansion seem to inbalance the game.

I was playing a VI campaign as the picts (again!) a few days ago, which I gave up on eventually. The Vikings invaded Domon with all their royals and I decided to try and isolate them there and counter attack, and began sinking as many of their longboats as possible. This took a while of course. Eventually I sent an aprox 800 strong force of pictish cavarly (+1 valour) crossbows, celtic warriors (+1 valour) and some spearmen to deal with an approx 200 strong force of huscarles and thralls. The crossbows shot the 1 complete huscarle unit down to about 70-80 men. Then they pulled back, the Celtic warriors (about 2 units) then charged at them downhill, and the Pictish cavalry flanked (2 units). It took a while for the thralls and another battered unit of huscarles to join up, but when they had done, the first unit had done it's work, and just a handful of my men were routing off the field...

All my tactics seemed fine, but these supermen don't care about tactics. I've charged huscarles at Feudal Knights uphill and won easily. The problem is that they kill so much and gain valour quite quickly, they're also elite, so routing is rarely an issue. Add a six star general to that and you've got an almost unstoppable killing machine.

I agree with your assesment here, I have played the picts in the past and am currently enjoying a nice pict campaign where I managed to get an alliance with the vikings straight away.

I noticed in your battle you didnt mention any Berserkers. While Pict crossbows are an exceptional unit and I use them a lot, Berserkers developed in fib with some armor and a weapon upgrade can hold the line against huscarles. Enough to allow you to flank anyway. Overall, huscarles are the best unit in viking game, IMHO, as you mention a superior general can make them unstoppable, yet the picts do get those berserkers and while not superior to huscarles can certainly help tip the scale in a pict campaign.

[caravel]

I agree with your assesment here, I have played the picts in the past and am currently enjoying a nice pict campaign where I managed to get an alliance with the vikings straight away.

I noticed in your battle you didnt mention any Berserkers. While Pict crossbows are an exceptional unit and I use them a lot, Berserkers developed in fib with some armor and a weapon upgrade can hold the line against huscarles. Enough to allow you to flank anyway. Overall, huscarles are the best unit in viking game, IMHO, as you mention a superior general can make them unstoppable, yet the picts do get those berserkers and while not superior to huscarles can certainly help tip the scale in a pict campaign.

Yes although it felt very wrong, because IMHO berskers are fantasy units, but we won't get into that here, I did train quite alot of berskerkers and they had some moderate success. On a second attempt at the campaign later I did manage to wipe the Vikings out, though not so much through direct engagments, moreso through destroying their shipping and causing their provinces to convert religion and rebel.

[Odin]

Yes although it felt very wrong, because IMHO berskers are fantasy units, but we won't get into that here, I did train quite alot of berskerkers and they had some moderate success. On a second attempt at the campaign later I did manage to wipe the Vikings out, though not so much through direct engagments, moreso through destroying their shipping and causing their provinces to convert religion and rebel.

I understand what you mean about Berserkers as a "fantasy unit", it feels that way sometimes. Your method the second time around is a very effective way of handling the matter with the vikings. It sucks when on turn 3 as the picts your being invaded and it dosent end, even with a decisive battle you must constantly war against the vikings and celtic warriors dont cut it.

Berserkers saved my butt more then once.... so did those lovely Pictish X Bow cavalry

[caravel]

I understand what you mean about Berserkers as a "fantasy unit", it feels that way sometimes. Your method the second time around is a very effective way of handling the matter with the vikings. It sucks when on turn 3 as the picts your being invaded and it dosent end, even with a decisive battle you must constantly war against the vikings and celtic warriors dont cut it.

Well the Vikings didn't attack in the years before I had built ports, boatbuilders and curraghs. Once the ships were up to strength I staged a simultaneous attack on their shipping. My losses were pretty negligable. After this I didn't have to worry about the vikings but concentrated on the Saxons who had defeated the Mercians and Welsh and taken all of England. Still I was having the same problems however: Overpowered Saxon Huscarles.

Berserkers saved my butt more then once.... so did those lovely Pictish X Bow cavalry

I used the mounted crossbows to good effect but after a while all the chasing around got boring, and began to feel like, not a tactical medieval era battle, but a ridiculous sort of AI exploit that kids would pass around at school, for those wishing to beat the last boss on level 9 they need only stay in one corner and keep shooting. I really do object to having to play the game like this. I play MTW for 'realistic' battles, not to use one type of unit in a cat and mouse fashion as a 'solution' to the Huscarle problem. Huscarles can beat almost every other unit in the VI campaign, especially when led by a general with decent command. They can even tear through royal bodyguards and mounted nobles, which they shouldn't really be able to do. This means that a player, as the Vikings, Saxons, Northumbrians or Mercians need only train a horde of these killers, and nothing else, and rampage accross the map with them.

To summarise as top why I think the Huscarles are overpowered:

The Mercian campaign for example works like this. It is so easy once the Saxons are destroyed and the viking shipping decimated, that you may as well give up. The faction has Huscarles.

The Saxon Campaign, only a little harder due to the Mercians being your neighbours. The faction has Huscarles.

The Northumbrians, also neighbours with the Saxons, but more vulnerable to the Vikings. Once the Viking Shipping is down and they're isolated however it's easy enough. The faction has Huscarles.

The Viking campaign, Raid around the Coasts and build up a big income from the abbeys and razings, then just move into the more profitable provinces on the mainland, destabilise the English factions (your Huscarle equipped enemies) then clean up and finish with the Irish. The faction has Huscarles and Joms Vikings as well as berserkers, Carls and Landsmen!

The Irish, their saving graces are the javelin units and the Gallowglasses, good charge though not the greatest morale. Without those they'd be in trouble though.

The Scots, Clansmen are not bad, but not Huscarle beaters by any standard. Once you've annexed the Pictish lands you can expand south.

The Welsh, have only the welsh bandits as a specialised units, but they still have archers and can train them at +1 valour in a certain province if IIRC.

The Picts, with their 'crossbows' and no bows, and berserkers?

hmm...

[Sethik]

True but what good cavalry do the norse have in good numbers? They wouldnt put up much of a fight against the superior horses of the Steppes

Also you have the Cuman Infantry and steppe infantry armed with bows that should be able to inflict some damage before they engage.

But i do love the Huscarls as well i think i have about 5 merc units of them in my cuman army

Yeah, that's why I mentioned in my original post that the Viking Factions are offset by their lack of any effective missile, cavalry, and anti-cav troops. This is why in order to build an effective Viking army you need to rely heavily on mercanaries for missiles and decent cavalry.

[caravel]

Very true. Even though you can rampage through the early period with Viking Huscarles, encountering the more horse archer based factions and their heavy cavalry will soon take the sting out of your tail. I would say the GH would be one of the best factions to take on a mainly Huscarle based Danish army or maybe the Hungarians.

[bretwalda]

Very true. Even though you can rampage through the early period with Viking Huscarles, encountering the more horse archer based factions and their heavy cavalry will soon take the sting out of your tail. I would say the GH would be one of the best factions to take on a mainly Huscarle based Danish army or maybe the Hungarians.

I would take on any Danish army with my Szekely's, Armored Spearmen and Jobbagy on a preferabbly not too hilly and forested terrain. It is still winable there but requires more attention.

(Nothing better to see than the foot troops running around exhausting themselves on the futile attempt of chasing horse archers...)

[caravel]

Indeed, but in the Viking campaign, Huscarles, both Saxon and Viking, seriously imbalance the campaign. The Northumbrians, Saxons and especially the Mercians are far easier than they should be because you can storm the Huscarles in there and take most of the map in a few years. Fyrdmen (equivalent to Feudal Sergeants) also help to tip the scales way too much in the favour of the English factions.

[Vladimir]

Indeed, but in the Viking campaign, Huscarles, both Saxon and Viking, seriously imbalance the campaign. The Northumbrians, Saxons and especially the Mercians are far easier than they should be because you can storm the Huscarles in there and take most of the map in a few years. Fyrdmen (equivalent to Feudal Sergeants) also help to tip the scales way too much in the favour of the English factions.

So you're saying that there may be a reason the English dominated England?