units look to be moving too fast

**Duke John** · 06-02-2006, 07:27

It is a clickfest. CA intentionally made historical battles where the AI was placed at a very close distance to the player. Without using pause it is impossible to save yourself out of the scripted mess. CA is starting to admit herself that R:TW wasn't all that perfect so I think it is only right if we can keep on pressing the gameplay issues that lots of players are having problems with.

And the speed slider was far superior. I've never lost an unit because of that, but I have lost many because of the lagging when on 2x or 4x speed.

**Cesare diBorja** · 06-02-2006, 08:04

I like it when I read that people think units move too fast. Did you know that the average knight could walk efficiently, crawl, and run very fast in a full suit of armor? ever see Excalibur. if you wear the stuff alot, you tend to grow into it. much like a football player, but more massive. The word 'hunk'(of man flesh.....) comes from this period. No he wasn't as limber as an archer but he'd kill 10-50 archers before one got him. Read about the Knights of St. John in their defence of Rhodes...........'The Shield and the Sword'. British volume. Read it the first time when I was twelve.

diborgia

**Callahan9119** · 06-02-2006, 09:07

so your basing your argument on fiction? most estimates of historical battles are embellished, and excaliber is fantasy. most combatants were not professional soldiers anyway.

the marching speed is not the problem its realistic...the fact that men in full armor can charge as fast as calvalry is the thing that isnt good....it imbalances or ruins gameplay and renders skirmishing useless

**Duke John** · 06-02-2006, 09:08

So a man in armour with a shield could run 17 km/h, charge at 21 km/h and not be out of breath when he reaches the enemy?

**sunsmountain** · 06-02-2006, 09:09

Speed wouldn't be such an issue, if morale were higher. The range of some ranged units (yes) could also be increased and speed would be a non-issue. Guess we're stuck with modding, because why lose the WCIII audience? Flanking? Huh?

**Lord Adherbal** · 06-02-2006, 10:52

speed is EVERYTHING. TW battles aren't up to scale, so if speed isn't "slow" you won't ever get interesting battles. I'll give an example: in RTW it doesn't matter what flank your cavalry is on, because they can get to the other flank in 1 second. This makes deployment fairly unimportant because any unit can be anywere in a second or two. Also, with these high speeds archers need to have intercontinental ranges, or else they wouldn't even get a volley off before the enemy reaches them. This has a severe effect on the skirmish phase. There is no more "pav tagging" because everything goes way too fast for that.

even with low kill speed and high morale, the game is still a about rushing and clickfesting (that term is hardly abusive, it just describes the high speed of the gameplay), and not tactical maneuvers.

**Cesare diBorja** · 06-02-2006, 10:54

The guys in 'Excalibur' were in real 13-15th century armour so it isn't total fiction. The stuff was real and they were actors who had to work out alot to make the movie and actually pulled it off. Fictional movie, yes. Armour real, yes. Get my point! The premise was fake. The action was real(them in armour, going through the motions, axe and sword blades it hitting the armour were blunt, essentially crowbars, these guys got hurt making the movie!). I met some of the guys(Patrick Stewart, Nigel Terry, Nigel Bruce) from that movie.

For those whom are doubters read about the battles of Crecy, Agincourt and Poitiers! Agincourt was a running battle that took place over a wide expanse of territory. Adherbal says it right!

sunsmountain; imagine if you had to carry 29 kgs of weight and had been doing it for 10-20 years at the age of 34. I am 34 and go camping at times with 20-30kgs of weight and run trails to make. I carried up to 32 kgs(dead weight; 6months training) in the US Navy and could run, Commonwealth SAS often have more, jogging sometimes 5 miles and sometimes having to go up hill. Its not impossible.

diBorgia

**Duke John** · 06-02-2006, 11:01

I know that plate armour wasn't that restrictive at all. But I am not convinced that it is possible for 200 soldiers to maintain formation while running at 17 km/h and still be combat worthy after 500 metres.

**Cesare diBorja** · 06-02-2006, 11:17

Drop your pack, still at weight+20 kgs, and I would use the my weapon as a brunt and push you over with my body weight and maybe a few of your friends. You are excluding shock force and thinking I am going to stop and swing my sword(or rifle w/bayonet) at you. Think steam-roller. 5'11'' 102.27 kgs(a Scotsman's build, I am Scotch/Irish, French, Prussian, Polish, Ukrainian, Jewish, African and American Indian) and pissed off. A double time until the last 30-50 metres then all out. If I am running at you and you swing to hit, unless you are a g-d of war, most of your blows will be glancing at best.

You know I just did a test with some guys about two months ago at my favorite pub and I told these to stop me. There were one time 3 of them the first time and then the next time, 4. I, both times, ran right through them, pushing them aside and blocking their punches, kicks and what have you, without being touched(receiving a blow). Trained military(intelligence and operations) versus what could be called militia. Hands, elbows and fists, no armour. Demonstration on shock force and initiative. We had all just gotten there within about 30 minutes, I had had one pint.

diBorgia

Subotai my crossbowmen regularly skirmish and then help out the heavies when it comes to the mosh pit fighting. they are responsible for at least 10, sometimes 30 percent of enemy casualties. The changes I made to the Chivmod are based on many books I presented at twcenter.net as 'monkeytool'.

**Duke John** · 06-02-2006, 11:51

Well, you may be heavy and having a death wish, but not all soldiers would just charge headlong into a wall of spears. Just like with horses you will have your surivial instinct kicking in and you will slow down. Of course some soldiers may continue to charge.

I cannot believe that medieval soldiers charged like that. The first rank might be able to contact with the enemy but then because of the speed there will be a clash of bodies resulting in grappling and wrestling. Then the second charging rank would arrive. If they also charge like you described than there would quickly be one big pile of soldiers on top of each other as men come charging in as fast as they can.

And isn't double time twice as fast as walking? That would be 10 km/h. That would be realistic but seeing armoured men walking at 17 km/h as if they were featherweights comes across as unbelieveable to many. Seeing that you immediately breaks the illusion of being there on the battlefield and makes TW quite clearly a game, an overdramatized game.