What is Freedom Of Speech ?

[Rodion Romanovich]

One instance makes for an exception not a rule. Its illegal based upon the law of the nation state, from a moral point of view - people must do what they believe is the morally right thing to do. However that also requires one to accept the consequences of thier actions.

Let me mention a few more instances:
- Adolf Hitler
- Benito Mussolini
- Pol Pot
- Red khmers
- Josef Stalin
- Slobodan Milosevic
- Saddam Hussein
- a dozen men in South America
- and a dozen African dictators
...to mention just a few of the most recent cases.

So indeed there's enough examples for it to be worth taking the danger of mad dictators into account when making constitutional laws. It's obvious that all countries with self-esteem should apply a list of rules which no leader of the country may pass without being "excommunicated" and legally justified to overthrow by any means. For instance if the government imprisons a citizen for merely stating his opinion, or the government builds camps for execution of people based on race, religion or political opinions. It must be a constitutional right and duty to remove a government in your own country from power if they step over certain lines. It must be a central part of the consitution and a constitutional law which may not be altered. I see no reason why such a law shouldn't be part of the constitution of all countries, considering how often dictatorship regimes appear, and how devastating they are to the masses.

Okay - I don't agree because its a simple thing to point out laws that have no moral values in their base.

Such laws are typically removed, or likely to be removed if they ever come up as a discussion among politicians. Feel free to give any counter-examples if you can find any.

Are you attempting a moral equalivancy question once again? If you haven't figured it out yet - I won't play the moral equalivancy game in this discussion. Freedom of Speech and its application is to important for such attempts.

Hilter had an obligation under the state to preserve the state. People have a moral obligation to insure the state is serving the people's best interest. If the constitution of the Weimer Republic stated that sedition was illegal - then Hilter had an obligation to persecute any and all who advocated the violent overthrow of the established authority.

Let me clarify the question - assume you had full power to decide how the constitution should look. Would you think it would be good to have as part of that constitution a law that said the citizens would never ever - even if the leader passed a point of madness such as when creating death camps, and started imprisoning people who merely stated their opinion - be allowed to advocate the overthrowing of the leader, with violence if needed?

Check out the topic of sedition. No alteration of history on my part. The Southern states advocated the violent removal of Federal troops in their states.

I fail to see how this relates to your opinion that nobody should be allowed to speak in favor of overthrowing their own government if that government passes certain points such as creating concentration camps and launching genocide. In my opinion, it should be in every constitution of every country's law a passus that says: the moment a government starts to prosecute free speech, or remove other democratic rights (followed by a full list of which rights the passus would concern), that government is no longer legitimate, and it's legal to overthrow them with any violence it requires, so that a new government may be elected.

Your first.

No, after you my lady, I insist

Free Speech alreadly has exceptions. Remember the people of Germany willing followed Hilter. So attempt to moral equalancy here does not apply.

There were many Germans who openly protested, and got sent off to camps early on. There were more Germans who didn't praise Hitler loudly enough, who were sent off to camps. After the war, most Germans could freely say they were never on Hitler's side. Of course many of those who were on Hitler's side had reason to lie about it after the war, but all approximations show that a clear majority was against most of what Hitler did. Some were supporting the plan for revenge for the Versailles treaty though. But it is (and would also have been in 1933-1945 if Hitler hadn't ruled Germany at that time) difficult to find more people supporting anti-semitism in Germany than in any other place. That shows the danger of removing free speech by scaring people from stating their opinion. The moment the first who advocated the overthrowing of the nazi government were sent off to death camps, the entire German population lived in fear of protesting against the nazi government, and because nobody protested, both the average German and the average citizen of the Allies' countries thought that the German population supported what Hitler did. It wasn't as much that people didn't want to, as it was that people didn't dare to, be different. The moment you remove freedom of speech as in speaking in favor of the overthrowing of your own government, by violence if necessary, after your government has gone insane, you pass a point where democracy can no longer exist.

You should remember that when genocidal dictators come to power and start their massmurder, they seldom do so by saying: "elect me, and you'll get higher salaries, lower taxes, and genocide!". They hide their intentions as long as possible, try to mask their intentions by temporarily satisfying the people. Step by step they remove one democratic right after another, while gradually increasing the fear of protesting. If it's a part of the constitution that a government that removes certain democratic rights (that there is no justifiable reason to remove unless you're going to do evil things) becomes illegitimate upon doing so, it would ring a warning bell if any leader would remove any of those rights. It would also give the people a better feeling of doing the right thing when revolting against such a leader, rather than being scared of being alone in hating the dictator. It would also make it clearer to the people when the moment for when revolt is necessary has come.

Your comparision here would indicate that you support the United States efforts on removing the Taliban from power, Saddam Hussian from power, I can also play the moral equalivent game.

I fail to see the connection between these two things
- my opinion: allowing free speech so that people are allowed to advocate the right of a citizen to speak in favor of overthrowing the own government if that own government has passed a line where it is no longer democratic after having imprisoned people for stating their opinion, or created concentration camps for genocide or murder of dissenters.
- your example: not only speak in favor of removing a not own but foreign government, but also doing so. (For the record I think you're allowed to speak in favor of removing any foreign government by the way - actually doing it requires a specific justification)

I think there's a huge difference between these two cases. Again you compare a man X who murders Y, with a man X who says "I think person Y deserves to die".

Now I said I detest those individauls - I never stated that an exception to the rule should be made. Follow the legal recourse is what I stated afterwards.

So you think anyone who advocates death penalty or violence against the monsters that child molestors are should be prosecuted and punished for it? You're a bit vague at this point - should there or shouldn't there in law be an exception from your golden rule? If no - would you want to be locked up in jail because you said child molestors deserve death or violence? If yes - why can you make an exception for child molestors but not for genocidal dictators - why should genocidal dictators be considered better than child molestors?

the legal recourse is what I stated

I think you're to afraid to have any opinion of the moral aspects of things, or how laws of a nation should be made to provide safety for it's citizens. You keep quoting existing laws (sometimes neither supporting them nor being against them), rather than stating your own opinion.