cavalry in EB

[Mad Guitar Murphy]

hi, I''m sorry if this question has been asked before but I couldn't find it in the older topics.

At this time cavalry charges are capable of breaking only the worst types of infantry. Even elite cavalry such as companions and cataphracts cannot break infantry in a flanking charge. A direct charge is not even an option.

A major problem that can not be solved is of course the fact that phalangites can make a 180 degrees turn in 1 second. Considering all this, is EB going to make cavalry stronger in later builds of the mod?

thank you,

Mad Guitar Murphy

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think you're exaggerating a bit, most enemy infantry can be broken if charged from behind with companions or cataphracts, you just need to have several units, 4 at the very least, to hit the same unit at one time. That's very realistic, because in real life the main strength of the cavalry isn't just it's powerful charge, but it's ability to move quickly so that it can achieve local superiority and strike a weak spot. If you do this and break a single enemy unit, you might thereby break their entire line, making it easy to roll up the rest of their line causing a chain rout. But it's necessary to pin the enemy properly before charging, unless the opposition is a light infantry unit. Also try withdrawing, reforming and recharging enemy units to make them break, rather than bogging down the cavalry in melee. A final note is to remember to emphasize on the infantry engagement and see the cavalry as something that can give an extra punch, not something that should be necessary for victory. If you try these things I think you'll find that cavalry in EB isn't at all underpowered, but very well balanced. That's at least my opinion so I hope EB won't power up the cavalry any more.

[stalin]

You can't expect cavalry to do well if they are unsupported and standing still, after all they are not the medieval armored tank unit. In vanilla you could charge heavy cav head on into a phallanx and the phallanx would break. I use my cav to chase down routing units chase away skirmishers or to deliver the decisive hammer blow onto exposed flank. They are expensive and I regard them as a luxury unit.

[Trithemius]

You can't expect cavalry to do well if they are unsupported and standing still, after all they are not the medieval armored tank unit. In vanilla you could charge heavy cav head on into a phallanx and the phallanx would break. I use my cav to chase down routing units chase away skirmishers or to deliver the decisive hammer blow onto exposed flank. They are expensive and I regard them as a luxury unit.

Actually, a modern warfare quibble, you really can't expect tanks to do very well if they are standing still and unsupported either. ;)

Good advice otherwise though!
With the Romani cavalry really is a luxury since you need a solid main-line of infantry and your cavalry is a bit weak compared to vanilla. With other people (Makedonians perhaps?) you have more and better cavalry, but still need to use it wisely since much of your army will be infantry as well.

[Kralizec]

In my experience, the best way to utilize shock cavalry in EB (or RTW in general) goes like this.

To maximise the effect of a cavalry charge, you need to make the surface on wich first contact is made as large as possible. Forget the wedge formation, in RTW it's useless. Have a phalanx unit pin an enemy, circle your cavalry all the way around and put its front parallel to the enemy's back. I prefer to keep the cavalry square at least 3 ranks thick, this helps them in the ensuing melee, plus if you want to withdraw (for another charge), they'll take less casualties then if they're spread thin. Fortunately in most cases this doesn't even allow an enemy phalanx to wheel around 180 degrees, and are forced to switch to their swords, if they're not already routing.
In handy text format:


__________C C C C C
__C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C
__C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C (heavy cavalry, align then charge)
__C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C




_e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e
__e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e (enemy infantry)
_e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e
__e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (phalanx)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



Note: if you don't have a phalanx unit at your hand, you can use something else and put it on guard mode to keep it formed in a square. Even with the lowly pandaptoi (sp?) or Illyrian tribal levies this works, you'll be surprised how long they can hold out in guard mode, even against more elite units.

[soibean]

I think 1.5 fixed the cavalry charge bug and actually allows for some more push behind the charge
as far as i know with the 1 second response team phalanx... nothing has come up to change that, its in the game mechanics. Thats only as far as I know so dont quote me on that

[Mad Guitar Murphy]

Thanks for the replies.

My questions comes from my experiences during my (third) parthian campaign so perhaps I should note that the option of pinning down infantry with my own infantry isn't really an option. Even though horse archers are usually sufficient to destroy any army the AI sents I'd like to use heavy cavalry for anything more challenging than destroying routing infantry.

Right now my tactic is. c= heavy cavalry h= horse archers i=infantry

King Murphy's Army
hhhhhhhhhh cccccccc hhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhh cccccccc hhhhhhhhhh


ccccc iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii cccccc
ccccc iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii cccccc
Evil Seleucids army

First I surround his heavy cavalry on both flanks with horse archers who destroy them within minutes. I leave my heavy cavalry in place because aiding the ha would result in massive friendly fire casualties.

This is the new situation.

ccccccccc
ccccccccc

hh iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii hh
hh iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii hh

hhhhhhhhhhhh

My ha attack should at the phalingites forcing them to turn their backs to my heavy cavalry, but then my problem arises, without infantry support, but with the enemy surrounded and continually charged by cataphracts (as legio mentioned, I agree, with history, charging and reforming is the best tactic) the result is a lot of dead expensive cataphracts and the ha having to do the job.

[Avicenna]

Use your rubbish hillmen or Eastern Infantry to bog up the expensive units of the enemy, and then charge them from the rear with your Cataphracts. They'll probably break within seconds. Or of course, in EB, any infantry you can get your hands on. They're cheap and expendable, after all. All-rounded armies are better anyway: cavalry armies tend to do bady in sieges, not being able to handle siege weapons and all.

[Dayve]

It's not underpowered... Id you have the enemy pinned down and the enemy unit is at the very least winded, or 'steady' in morale, (although shaken is better) then even the crappiest of cavalry like Roman equittes can break them... Cavalry of the western world in this time was never EVER meant to charge head on into the enemy... It's always been there to hit their flanks or rear and cause mass panic... Or in other words exploit weak spots.

Eastern cavalry however, i agree they should have bonuses... Especially cataphracts. My ancient eastern knowledge isn't all that fruitful but some eastern cavalry of the time was designed to charge head on into enemy infantry wasn't it?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks for the replies.

My questions comes from my experiences during my (third) parthian campaign so perhaps I should note that the option of pinning down infantry with my own infantry isn't really an option. Even though horse archers are usually sufficient to destroy any army the AI sents I'd like to use heavy cavalry for anything more challenging than destroying routing infantry.

Right now my tactic is. c= heavy cavalry h= horse archers i=infantry

King Murphy's Army
hhhhhhhhhh cccccccc hhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhh cccccccc hhhhhhhhhh


ccccc iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii cccccc
ccccc iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii cccccc
Evil Seleucids army

First I surround his heavy cavalry on both flanks with horse archers who destroy them within minutes. I leave my heavy cavalry in place because aiding the ha would result in massive friendly fire casualties.

This is the new situation.

ccccccccc
ccccccccc

hh iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii hh
hh iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii hh

hhhhhhhhhhhh

My ha attack should at the phalingites forcing them to turn their backs to my heavy cavalry, but then my problem arises, without infantry support, but with the enemy surrounded and continually charged by cataphracts (as legio mentioned, I agree, with history, charging and reforming is the best tactic) the result is a lot of dead expensive cataphracts and the ha having to do the job.

Normally seleucids, or evil seleucids that is , will get more and more pezhetairoi later on in the game. Before they do, HAs can wipe entire armies out, but pezhetairoi are a bit too well armored. When that point is reached, I'd recommend switching to a more infantry based army, with horse archers to wipe out enemy medium and light cav, then your heavy cav wipes out enemy heavy cav, then your horse archers try to SPLIT UP the enemy rather than killing them, being very conservative with the arrows. Then use short volleys of arrows followed by cease fire and a heavy cavalry charge (use a wide double line group formation for the heavy cavs and order move fast, then charge when they're close to the target unit to make them go around the flanks of the enemy unit). This way you can wipe out most enemy light infantry, which is first demoralized by the arrows, then the subsequent charge. After that comes the tricky part of dealing with enemy heavy infantry, which requires pinning. Mistophoroi phalangitai are excellent mercenaries that are comparable to pezhetairoi. If you can't get them, trying to isolate the enemy units and pin them with light, mobile infantry that can be kept away from the enemy until just seconds before your heavy cavalry charge comes, is probably the best idea. Try to use units with high defense rather than charge/attack stats, for best results. Achieving a good pinning effect with crappy infantry can be really difficult I must admit, but I'm afraid that's the key to defeating the more heavily armored seleucid infantry.