Elephants

[edyzmedieval]

Did the elephants exist in the Middle Ages anymore?!

If so, who had them?!

[Advo-san]

War elephants? Nice question.....Hm.... Mabe in India they still used them, but it is only a guess....

P.S. Nice signature, the war colors of byzantium..... My football club, AEK Athens(Athletic Enosis (=union) of Konstantinople) also is dressed in yellow and black, and its symbol is the two-headed eagle....

[Kralizec]

Well sure, they existed off course ;)

Seriously though, I think that the African forest elephant (the smallest elephant ingame) was made almost extinct in north Africa. Indian elephants still existed, but the Sassanids were the last to use them IIRC. I don't know why the Arabs or the Turks never used them

[Kraxis]

If Europe had had a supply of elephants we can be sure that they would have been tried out at least in the early medieval times. But since the Muslims blocked the way to all areas of elephants there was no chance to get them other than as curiosities (I believe one of the Caliphs sent one to Charlemagne as a gift).
And since the Muslims didn't us them there wasn't any tradition of fighting with or against them. So in essence the rulers of Europe hardly knew that they could be used for warfare (a few might have read about the Punic Wars).

[Meneldil]

Kubylai Khan had a whole lot of Elephants in his army, and he fought people whose armies were basically mostly made of Elephants (in Indochina), according to Marco Polo.

[lars573]

I think the Ghaznavids and maybe the Khwarizmians used war elephants in the middle ages. But the Moslem and Hindu states of India used war elephants in the middle ages. So did the Khemer and Champans.

[King Henry V]

Elephants were used in India right on into the 18th century. IIRC they were used at the Battle of Plassey.

[AntiochusIII]

War elephants were used in India and Southeast Asia for a long time. Both areas have long traditions of war elephants, and they were often used (at least in Southeast Asia) as "royal/nobility" mounts. There're also a lot of tradition about kings and princes "dueling" each other while riding elephant mounts. In fact, white elephants (a rarity) are sacred in several Southeast Asian countries.

However, despite their destructive effects and apparent strength and awe they have; the Mongols could easily defeat these war elephants once they knew how to scare them, and make the elephants run amok. Kublai's forces in Southeast Asia were fighting an old Burma kingdom, I think, and wrecked it completely (the old "Thai" and "Khmer" kingdoms were spared because they agreed to become the Khan's vassals - Vietnam, of course, was conquered - the northern part of it, at least) And of course, anyone who fought Indian forces in ancient times faced war elephants, and the Indians used them against each other often enough.

[edyzmedieval]

But, did the Turks or other people have elephants?!

I mean, Elephants, but they have to exist as far as Syria. This si for the Byzantium mod, cuz we want to know if it's historical to include elephants, and to whom.

[Watchman]

I know the Arabs had to deal with Persian war 'fants during the "Islamic blitzkrieg", but I've also gotten the impression later Persian dynasties didn't bother with the buggers. Might as well; the critters tend to be logistical and tactical nightmares, and not worth much anything - rather more of a hindrance - against any enemy who'd figured out how to deal with the critters. The Mongols seem to have figured it out halfway through their first encounter with them (although I understand the sounthern-most Chinese mini-dynasty also employed the big lugs to some extent, so they would actually have had some prior experience), for example. More to the point, Mesopotamia and Iran were overran by "horse peoples" from the steppes who, even after relatively settling down, would seem like somewhat unlikely candidates to bother with the big beasts except perhaps as prestige pieces. Horses worked by far better and were much closer tot their hearts anyway.

Assorted Indian lords, including the Turkic Mughals, seem to always have had a thing for elephants, but then again the animals were by far easier to come by there in the first place...

[lars573]

But, did the Turks or other people have elephants?!

I mean, Elephants, but they have to exist as far as Syria. This si for the Byzantium mod, cuz we want to know if it's historical to include elephants, and to whom.

It's not historical to have any faction out side of Islamic Persian states to have elephant units. See the lion and elephant populations of Syria and the elephant and lion populations of north africa were all rendered extinct by 3 centruies of Roman rule. By the time even BI starts they were gone, exterminated by the Roman bloodlust in the arena. Persian states could get elephants trained for war from India, infact that's where the Sassanids in BI will get them from.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think Timur Lenk used elephants in the 14th century.

[edyzmedieval]

Hey....

The Khwarazmiam Empire!!! Persians!!! They had war elephants!!!

[lars573]

According to AOK yes they did but according to other sources that is BS. So the Khwarazmiam Sultans may or may not have had elephants.

[VAE VICTUS]

Well sure, they existed off course ;)

Seriously though, I think that the African forest elephant (the smallest elephant ingame) was made almost extinct in north Africa. Indian elephants still existed, but the Sassanids were the last to use them IIRC. I don't know why the Arabs or the Turks never used them

yes the forsest elephant(used by hannabal)were quite extinct i believe by the middle ages.either they were really effectiv in war and so used until numbers were depleted,or they sucked and kept getting killed.or a meteor hit them all on the head?
and india did have war elephants at least until muslims(i believe)came and out maneouvered the elephantes and shot the drivers,mainly with horse archers if im not mistaken.

[Meneldil]

No elephants in the 9th century either ?
It would be cool to have an elephant unit for the Caliphate in Age of Vikings and Fanatics, but I guess we'll have to go without it.

[Steppe Merc]

VAE VICTUS, horse archers are an excellent counter to elephants, so that's probable.

[TangMo]

War Elephants were used in siamese (now thailand)-burmese wars in the past 700 years. The last time it was used was less than 200 years ago. The last time that thai king gathered the elephants from the wild to train as war elephant was just about 100 years ago. Today, the elephants are used in ceremony not in the war anymore.

[AntiochusIII]

War Elephants were used in siamese (now thailand)-burmese wars in the past 700 years. The last time it was used was less than 200 years ago. The last time that thai king gathered the elephants from the wild to train as war elephant was just about 100 years ago. Today, the elephants are used in ceremony not in the war anymore.

Past 700 years? I presume its more like past 600 years since Sukotai (sp?) didn't use elephants to that magnitude (and besides, that kingdom didn't fight against the Burmese, rather against the Khmer empire). It was Ayutthaya (sp?) that used them in large numbers. These war elephants were valued as powerful royal mounts, as I said. There's a lot of traditions about royalty-to-royalty duels on elephants - one celebrates an important Siamese prince (future warrior king) slaying a Burmese heir to the throne in battle as a liberation of Ayutthaya from the vassal status to the Burmese and its subsequent restoration.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

It's very possible they still were in military use in India. You will probably not hear much about Indian warfare then because they weren't really united. They fought amongest each other for a long time. I'm sure some people used them in Europe, though, even if only for carrying supplies...

[edyzmedieval]

Thanks for all the info.

Guess we'll have to do without them.

[Marquis of Roland]

Seleucid Empire got a couple hundred elephants as some sort of peace offering from some Indian country that won back Bactria, I think. Either Seleucus or Antiochus brought them to the middle east and bred them.

I don't think there were elephants in Syria before then? (cause I figured that would have rendered the Seleucids requesting elephants from the Indians rather pointless)

[Watchman]

AFAIK horse archers kind of suck against elephants. All cavalry tends to, unless specifically trained not to fear the huge animals (and even then it's rather questionable if infantry wouldn't do better...). The Mongols found it most expedient to tie up their horses and dismount their archers when facing the big things, for example.

The Middle East used to have lions even during the Medieval period - after all, it was the only animal the Templars considered fitting to hunt - but far as I can tell it's not exactly "elephant country". Both savannas and suitable forests seem to have been missing for quite a while, after all. Presumably if you wanted to find war elephants in 8th to 10th century Islamic armies it might be theoretically possible to have them those of the Egyptian and North African lords, as they would have a reasonably easy time aquiring them from sub-Saharan Africa - but even then that'd be stretching it; by that period most folks seem to have wisened up enough to recognize the animals' general shortcomings as war mounts.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the sub-Saharan Africans ever bothered even trying to use the 'fants as weapons the way the Indians, SE Asians, Middle Easterners and Mediterranean folks did ?

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

War elephants were used in Asia and India though Europe hadnt had alot of encounters after the Sassanid Persian Empire was destroyed. Charlemagne had a white elephant as a gift he led in his campaign against the Danes. One medieval Pope had one he used to capture Jerusalem (or a city near it). Other than that the War Elephant wasnt a formidable weapon. Then when gunpowder was invented an elephant could be knocked aside by a cannon shot.

[edyzmedieval]

What about Cannon Elephants? Any historical evidence?

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I think the Mughal empire used them in India. Maybe it wasn't the Mughals.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

What about Cannon Elephants? Any historical evidence?

Nope.

[Aenlic]

The Mughals took wholeheartedly to the use of war elephants in their conquest of India. They also invented things like special blades with cuffs designed to fit over the stumps of the tusks, which they trimmed down for the purpose. Then the elephants were trained to swing their heads at horse and rider or troops on the ground, slicing them to bits with the two foot long curved blades on the ends of their tusks. Very effective.

[Homo Sapiens]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_elephants

According to this, war elephants were used extensively by the Indians, and to a lesser degree by the Egyptians, Carthaginians, Persians, and Greeks.
Elephants were seldom used by anyone but the Indians in the Middle Ages. The last major battle to feature war elephants was the Third battle of Panipat in 1761.

[econ21]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the sub-Saharan Africans ever bothered even trying to use the 'fants as weapons the way the Indians, SE Asians, Middle Easterners and Mediterranean folks did ?

I've not heard of the modern day African elephant being used by man even in a domestic capacity (outside of circuses etc) or even being ridden. Not sure why - presumably temperament - they seem smart enough; I went to a zoo and the keeper pointed out the African elephant was the only one in their collection that had learnt how to peel an orange.