Is this Iraq's My Lai?

[InsaneApache]

I know it's easy for us sat in front of our PCs to pontificate on these things, but it does seem as this did get out of control.

As Iman tells it, US marines burst into her house 15 minutes after the bomb destroyed the Humvee, apparently looking for insurgents. They shouted at her father. Then a grenade was thrown into her grandparents’ room. She saw her mother hit by shrapnel. Her aunt grabbed a baby and ran from the house.

Soldiers opened fire inside the living room, where most of the family were gathered. Her uncle Rashid came downstairs, saw what was happening, then fled outside, where he was pursued by Marines and shot.

“Everybody who was in the house was killed by the Americans except my brother Abdul-Rahman and me,” Iman said. “We were too scared to move and tried to hide under a pillow. I was hit by shrapnel in my leg. For two hours we didn’t dare to move. My family didn’t die immediately. We could hear them groaning.”

“It’s a disaster,” said Tareq al-Hashemi, Iraq’s Sunni Vice-President, who dislikes the occupation but does not want US troops to leave until the country is stable. “They are provoking all Iraqis, especially from the Arab Sunni community. They are pushing them to join the national resistance and to fight . . . Maybe some of them feel sympathetic to al-Qaeda now,” he told The Times.

source

If this is indeed true, then it is a disaster for the coalition in Iraq. This can only serve to fuel hatred for the USA and the west.

[Tribesman]

Come on Apache , the full report hasn't been released yet .
Anyway , with that aside , its the civilians own fault , they chose to live near a terrorist attack ,they bought it on themselves , they had the option of living in a different house in a different country didn't they .

[Dâriûsh]

Right now the truth about what happened in al-Haditha is negligible. Most people have already made up their minds.

[Banquo's Ghost]

If this is indeed true, then it is a disaster for the coalition in Iraq. This can only serve to fuel hatred for the USA and the west.

And what's new? Both sides are becoming increasingly brutalised by this conflict, increasingly careless of people's lives. The killing of civilians has been woefully under-reported by the US and UK media, as if they are somehow irrelevant.

No, this is not Iraq's My Lai, since no-one seems to care as much as they did then.

[Major Robert Dump]

Good luck finding an American under 20 who knows or will know about that

But no, not even close. More people died then and you had American soldiers pointing guns at each other, and thats pretty fekked up. I'm not gonna comment any more, other than to say if this turns to be true I hope military justice serves its purpose, with a vengeance.

[Major Robert Dump]

And what's new? Both sides are becoming increasingly brutalised by this conflict, increasingly careless of people's lives. The killing of civilians has been woefully under-reported by the US and UK media, as if they are somehow irrelevant.

No, this is not Iraq's My Lai, since no-one seems to care as much as they did then.

People still care, particularly Americans. We don't ignore stuff like this if we find out about it. The investigation isn't done yet, beleive me, we are watching

[Divinus Arma]

As I said before, and as a U.S. Marine myself, if theses Marines are guilty of this crime, then each should be executed. And as soon as possible.

But first we need an open and fair hearing. Unfortunately, they will not recieve that under the U.S. military justice system. The "Jury" consists of senior enlisted and officers; not exactly peers and certainly not without prejudice.

[Hurin_Rules]

But first we need an open and fair hearing. Unfortunately, they will not recieve that under the U.S. military justice system. The "Jury" consists of senior enlisted and officers; not exactly peers and certainly not without prejudice.

Yow, for once I agree completely with you DA.

It does seem that this incident did indeed happen in the way it is being portrayed: cold blooded murder. Children included. Now, we have to wait for all the evidence comes out, but the people who were briefed by the military, like John Murtha (a veteran and well-respected by many on both sides), said it was just as bad, if not worse, than it had been reported:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12998125/

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? FoxNews is not saying a word: http://www.foxnews.com/

[Divinus Arma]

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? FoxNews is not saying a word: http://www.foxnews.com/

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? Al Jazeera is not saying a word: http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? CNN is not saying a word: http://www.cnn.com/

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? The BBC is not saying a word: http://news.bbc.co.uk/

None of them have anything on their home page at the moment.

ABC is all over it: http://abcnews.go.com/
CBS is all over it: http://www.cbsnews.com/
NBC is all over it: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
Drudge is all over it: http://www.drudgereport.com/


And I'm sure that every site has a story on it somewhere and that it was on their home page at one point or another. Unless of course Fox News and Al Jazeera share the same views on U.S. Foreign Policy in Iraq?

[Strike For The South]

Turning point anyone?

[Divinus Arma]

That is actually a pic of a North Vietnamese guy doing the execution. And no, this isn't a turning point, unless you want it to be for you. And if your are a liberal.

[Strike For The South]

I was under the impression that the pic above was "one of ours killing one of theres" It was taken during the tet offensive and was used to galvanize support for the hippies drug addicts and other undieriebles who made up the anti-war movement. The question is no longer was it right that point has been moot since the boots hit the ground and if you are still stuck on that you are a moron (not you peps in genral) the question now is how long are we going to stay

[InsaneApache]

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? Al Jazeera is not saying a word: http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? CNN is not saying a word: http://www.cnn.com/

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? The BBC is not saying a word: http://news.bbc.co.uk/

None of them have anything on their home page at the moment.

ABC is all over it: http://abcnews.go.com/
CBS is all over it: http://www.cbsnews.com/
NBC is all over it: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
Drudge is all over it: http://www.drudgereport.com/


And I'm sure that every site has a story on it somewhere and that it was on their home page at one point or another. Unless of course Fox News and Al Jazeera share the same views on U.S. Foreign Policy in Iraq?

Sorry my USMC friend, you are erroneous.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5022380.stm

[Ser Clegane]

I was under the impression that the pic above was "one of ours killing one of theres" It was taken during the tet offensive

You are correct - the picture shows the execution of a Vietcong at the hands of Vietnam's police chief in Saigon

[InsaneApache]

That is actually a pic of a North Vietnamese guy doing the execution. And no, this isn't a turning point, unless you want it to be for you. And if your are a liberal.

and again you are mistaken, the pic is of a south Vietnamese colonel execting a presumed insurgent.

Sorry, but do try to keep up. (It only happened 40 years ago...jeez)

SC beat me to it....still very sad

[Redleg]

You are correct - the picture shows the execution of a Vietcong at the hands of Vietnam's police chief in Saigon

Now just for the historical note- who was the victim in the photo?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I know who the individual is, and why he was shot. Not condoning the summary execution - but wanting to see how much is actually known,

From the Photojournalist who took the picture

[quote]Drawn by gunfire, Adams and an NBC film crew watched South Vietnamese soldiers bring a handcuffed Viet Cong captive to a street corner, where they assumed he would be interrogated. Instead, South Vietnam's police chief, Lt. Col. Nguyen Ngoc Loan, strode up, wordlessly drew a pistol and shot the man in the head.

Adams caught the instant of death in a photo that made front pages around the world. It would became one of the Vietnam's War's most indelible images, shocking the American public and used by critics to belie official claims that the war was being won.

In later years, Adams found himself so defined and haunted by the picture that he would not display it at his studio. He also felt it unfairly maligned Loan, who lived in Virginia after the war and died in 1989.

"The guy was a hero," Adams said, recalling Loan's explanation that the man he executed was a Viet Cong captain, responsible for murdering the family of Loan's closest aide a few hours earlier.

"Sometimes a picture can be misleading because it does not tell the whole story," Adams said in an interview for a 1972 AP photo book. "I don't say what he did was right, but he was fighting a war and he was up against some pretty bad people."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1220763/posts

[InsaneApache]

Redleg.

[Divinus Arma]

Sorry my USMC friend, you are erroneous.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5022380.stm

As I said NONE OF THEM HAVE ANYTHING ON THEIR HOME PAGE AT THE MOMENT.

And BBC still doesn't. http://news.bbc.co.uk/

I Also said: And I'm sure that every site has a story on it somewhere and that it was on their home page at one point or another.




As for the VC photo, well if I am wrong then I am wrong. I thought it was a VC regular executing a Southern vietnamese. I stand corrected on that.

[Dâriûsh]

Aljazeera reported it back in March.

[InsaneApache]

So, let me get this straight, if it's not on the homepage, then it's irrelevant?

And please don't shout, I'm not in your much vaunted USMC

[Divinus Arma]

Jesus Christ. Do even read your own thread? I was responding to Hurin Rules who said that Fox News is silent on the issue because nothing is on the home page.

This is ridiculous. Read the damn thread over and then see if you can figure out at all what the hell I'm trying to say.

Nobody ever said "if it's not on the homepage, then it's irrelevant", but Hurin Rules inferred it.

Do you get it now? I cannot for the life of me see how this can be confusing.

[InsaneApache]

In that case I apologise and I stand corrected,I had assumed that you were referring to me.

However where it is reported is irrelevant. More to the fact is that it happened.

[KafirChobee]

Turning point anyone?

First off, thanks Redleg for setting that photo right - the man may not have been politically correct in his action, but he was absolutely human in it. In that he was correct. God help the SOB that harms my family, or a friends.

As far as a turning point? Ladys and gents, the worm turned long ago concerning Americans and support for the Iraq incursion - but, they believe in our troops. Most just want them home now. Period.

What Americans (that haven't stood on the wall) don't grasp is that soldiers are humanbeings - trained to kill. These humanbeings, however, tend to get very angry when they lose one of their own, and even worse they some times include the innocent in their vendettas to justify the injustice (casualties) perpetrated by people that look just like the innocents they murder.

Regardless, It doesnot create a justification for such an action, or even excuse it. It does raise into question the leadership and those that gave such a person that type of power. What did they miss in the man's character? Did they in fact miss anything at all .... simply that he is human, and any humanbeing can be stressed to the breaking point that if they ain't with us - they be against us. Ergo, kill 'em all. Let us look also on how many tours the lad has had there before condeming him to life imprisonment or a fireing squad. We been there for 3 years and some men are already on their 3rd tours. That is just wrong.

My Lai, created by a Colonel and settled by a LT. The Col. walked and the LT took the brunt for following orders. I am not a Calley fan. However, I can identify. The hamlet was dirty (weapons were found), it had killed Americans, and the dips walking in there (Calley's boys) had just lost a few in the jungle. What busted my chops about it was that Calley killed kids and women. Personally, had he taken all the men aside (after finding the weapons cache) and drilled them, then shot them if they had not answered ... fine. But, Calley didn't do that. Instead he listened to his Col. - "round'em up and shoot 'em". Colonel was never charged. Calley was wrong for following an illegal order (as were the soldiers at Abu Ghraib ... Bush still can't pronounce it... what a duphas), and he should still be in jail for his actions. Lol.

There is absolutely no comparrison to My Lai. If there ever is, the perpetrator will become an American hero for some ... just as Calley is today. After all, he got a Presidential pardon.

[Divinus Arma]

In that case I apologise and I stand corrected,I had assumed that you were referring to me.

All is well.

However where it is reported is irrelevant. More to the fact is that it happened.

I agree entirely. That's why I pointed out the flaw in Hurin_Rules' logic, just as he would if I posted a brainfart myself. And why haven't you replied Hurin? In your own words: "I'll take the silence as a win".

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Well, as Div said before, if it actually happened, the soldiers involved should be executed. It is unacceptable, and downright wrong for such things to happen. Now, while I am still a bit sceptical about whether it did happen or not, I do think it should be investigated. The words of an Iraqi civilian alone may not be the best thing to go by, we've seen how some of them feel about soldiers.

But does this denote that the war is wrong and we should leave immediatly? No. We are in Iraq doing good things, and yeah, sometimes some soldiers get out of hand. That's bad, and it should be handled just as if it was one of the enemy soldiers doing the same thing. But it doesn't mean we should leave the country, just like My Lai didn't mean we should have left Vietnam.

However, is this Iraq's My Lai? No. My Lai was a massacre in it's truest form, committed by a large number of American troops resulting in about 504 civilain dead. This atrocity, while no less atrocious, was much smaller on scale, and will not be as easily covered up. Will it have similar effects, and will our enemies use it against us as the North used My Lai? I fear so.

[Hurin_Rules]

I agree entirely. That's why I pointed out the flaw in Hurin_Rules' logic, just as he would if I posted a brainfart myself. And why haven't you replied Hurin? In your own words: "I'll take the silence as a win".

Woah, woah, woah, big guy, hold your horses there.

Firstly, I didn't respond because my book manuscript is due at the publishers in a little over a week, and I've been working 12-14 hour days for the last month. I posted my original post less than 19 hours ago. Sheesh.

Secondly, I think my point is still valid: FoxNews is known to, shall we say, de-prioritize stories that would look bad for the US military. I was not at all implying the story wasn't important (and in fact you'll note that I was essentially agreeing with you in my post, for God's sake!). I was implying that the fact that it was being reported by the more liberal US media, but not Foxnews, suggests its pretty bad for the US military. And that, I think, is pretty clear.

And sorry, both the BBC and CNN were reporting on this, even if you didn't see it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5022380.stm

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/me...tha/index.html

[Divinus Arma]

Woah, woah, woah, big guy, hold your horses there.

Firstly, I didn't respond because my book manuscript is due at the publishers in a little over a week, and I've been working 12-14 hour days for the last month. I posted my original post less than 19 hours ago. Sheesh.

Secondly, I think my point is still valid: FoxNews is known to, shall we say, de-prioritize stories that would look bad for the US military. I was not at all implying the story wasn't important (and in fact you'll note that I was essentially agreeing with you in my post, for God's sake!). I was implying that the fact that it was being reported by the more liberal US media, but not Foxnews, suggests its pretty bad for the US military. And that, I think, is pretty clear.

And sorry, both the BBC and CNN were reporting on this, even if you didn't see it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5022380.stm

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/me...tha/index.html

argggh! Well OF COURSE they have stories on it! But at the time you posted this it was not ON ANYBODY'S HOMEPAGE from the groups I had listed. You demonized Foxnews when even Al JAzeera didn't have it on their homepage.

Fox reported on it: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188526,00.html

All I'm saying, "big guy", is that you are engaign circular reasoning instead of logic. "Foxnews doesn't have the Massacre story on its homepage today, therefore they are a propoganda machine". I mean, come on bro, this is just silliness!

[Hurin_Rules]

Fox reported on it: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188526,00.html

You'll note that article dates from May 20th, and I don't see any updates since; moreover, at the time I looked, it was clearly off their front page.

Think we'll just have to disagree on that one.

[x-dANGEr]

Come on Apache , the full report hasn't been released yet .
Anyway , with that aside , its the civilians own fault , they chose to live near a terrorist attack ,they bought it on themselves , they had the option of living in a different house in a different country didn't they .

You must be kidding!!!

@DA: Man, your tone is really heavy.. Cool down eh!

@Hurin: I think most of the foreign media (Non-arab/muslim) try to tone down things a bit for their government. Do you actually entrust and believe the reported deaths on both the US side and the Iraqis side in Iraq? And, is the media's camera giving the whole image? It maybe that their abilities is limited, due to the 'captivity' events, but, why push the balance to the other sides favor?

[Brenus]

Good (or bad, depending on your point of view…) I heard about this on Euronews this morning….