The Mongol Question....an Insight

[Steppe Merc]

I agree strongly with your assessment, its what I figured from what I've read. It also does not help that Jochi's legitimacy was called into question, because his mother was captured by enemies before his birth. And while the Empire may have splintered, it stayed together a lot longer than most nomadic empires.

I have a question, have you ever read the book "Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World"? It's an excellent book that I read. It doesn't focus much on the actual military tactics which to me is fine, since I already have a lot on it. But it is very good at adressing a lot of the misconceptions about the Mongols, and it discusses the reason why Batu withdrew (and comes to the same conclusion).

[Orda Khan]

No Steppe Merc, I've not read that book but I agree with your choice of read. There are so many that cover the main events and far too few, unless you dig really deeply, that offer the information that we need to truly understand the subject. My post, as long as it is, barely scratches the surface of the intricacies of the Empire.
For example...
The purges under Mangku were ruthless but they were not decisively so. Cruel though it may be, if you instigate such eradication of your opponents/possible opponents you should see it through and erase them all, for if you do not, one day they will resurface. This was very much the case with Qaidu; only a boy when the purges began and too young to contest the throne. He actually benefitted from the murder of his brothers as they were his potential competition. Just as the other Mongol houses were dissatisfied with the Qa'anate residing solely with the Ogodeids, surely at some future time the same would be the case with the Toluids. Guyug replaced Qara Hulegu (grandson of Chagadai) with his personal friend Yesu Mangku (Chagadai's son) as leader of the Chagadaid Ulus. This was reversed under Mangku and Batu (I say both because it was very much a joint venture) and Batu executed Yesu Mangku along with Buri (who was as good as dead once Guyug died) and Guyug's son Noqa. There were many other Princes who escaped for not contesting Mangku's election and therefore the possibility of future dispute was still very much alive.

Imagine the descendants of a leader as an ever widening pyramid. Chingis had four sons by Borte but how many in total? There were concubines as well as wives. Let's not forget his brothers who also had descendants who would one day play their part in a dispute here and there. With every generation the claimants increase, it would take a remarkably understanding, tolerant family for there to be no jealousy or anamosity. If we consider that one youngster resents the fact that his grandfather or father was murdered, dispute is almost guaranteed.
Every Ulus had family individuals residing in it, each with their own pastures and these too became hot beds of disputes. When they occured, support would be sought from other directions and these battles would all undermine the Mongol structure.
Orda's White Horde Ulus bordered the domains of the Chagadaid house and those of Qaidu, who eventually ruled Chagadaid lands. It also bordered the Yuan to the north and the Ilkhanate to the south. Orda lived to a good age, around seventy. He died in 1280 but in the mid 1260's his son and Heir, Qonichi, was heading an army fighting with Qaidu against Yuan forces. In 1284 Qonichi sat on a council that decided to return a Chinese general to Qubilai. He improved relations with the Yuan and Ilkhanate. This threatened Qaidu and his Chagadaid ally Du'a and when Qonichi died, they meddled in White Horde affairs by supporting Quilug, who was then able to challenge his cousin, Bayan. Seeking support from Toqto'a of the Golden Horde, after his defeat, Bayan received none as Toqto'a was busy fighting Nogai Toqto'a wasted no time in pointing out that Bayan's weakness was evidence to his right to rule White Horde lands. After a series of fifteen battles Quilug had seized some territory but Bayan was still ruling. He instigated a coalition of White Horde, Yuan and Ilkhanate forces and succeeded in 1302/3 after Qaidu's death and with Toqto'a victorious over Nogai, the Golden Horde signed the treaty also and Bayan secured his rightful position as Khan of the White Horde.
This would be considered a minor dispute but just consider the shifting alliances, the constant warfare and over a thirty to forty year period. The situation becomes worse the more we spiral outwards. The conflicts become larger in scale. When we take all this into account, the Mongol Empire resembles, very much, the Mongolian homelands prior to Chingis Khan.

The Jochid legitamacy has been over played by most authors I feel, it adds a little spice. No doubt there was a fair amount of gossip and there may have been some resentment but the only evidence of this is Chagadai's outburst, the rest is assumption. Most sources suggest that Batu refused the Qa'anate due to his questionable legitamacy, I think he was happy enough with his new domain and his position as virtual co-ruler with his good friend and nominee, Mangku. Unfortunately, Mangku died too soon; the purges were still fresh in the mind

.........Orda

[Aenlic]

Wow, gentlemen. I must admit to not being particularly well-informed about all of this, just having a basic knowledge of the Horde; but this thread has been very interesting! I have to go out and find this book mentioned by Steppe Marc now. You've peaked my interest.

Can you recommend a good book or books that might also deal with some of the other peoples of the steppes that I've taken an interest in, such as the Pechenegs and the Cuman and more? My knowledge of the Cumans comes almost solely from the story of Prince Igor.

[nokhor]

Wow, gentlemen. I must admit to not being particularly well-informed about all of this, just having a basic knowledge of the Horde; but this thread has been very interesting! I have to go out and find this book mentioned by Steppe Marc now. You've peaked my interest.

Can you recommend a good book or books that might also deal with some of the other peoples of the steppes that I've taken an interest in, such as the Pechenegs and the Cuman and more? My knowledge of the Cumans comes almost solely from the story of Prince Igor.

a classic introductory textbook is rene grousset 'the empire of the steppes'

[Subedei]

Yes, Grousset is one of the best books on steppe-nomads.... i loved the reading....

[Aenlic]

Thanks, gentlemen. I'll look for both books. If it comes down to it, and I can't locate them to purchase, I can always find them at the university library; but I like having such books around for later reference.

[Steppe Merc]

Can you recommend a good book or books that might also deal with some of the other peoples of the steppes that I've taken an interest in, such as the Pechenegs and the Cuman and more? My knowledge of the Cumans comes almost solely from the story of Prince Igor.

Well, this book doesn't really touch much on the Pechnegs, but it does throughout discuss a bit about the Qipchaqs (Cumans). It's Erik Hildinger's Warriors of the Steppe: A Military History of Central Asia, 500 B.C. to A.D. 1700. Unfortanently, it only really discusses the major players (Scythians, Huns, Mongols), and not enough on the many Turkish nomads (too much on the Seljuqs). I liked it though because of the info on the later nomads and those they influenced, like the Mamluks (many who were Qipchaqs), Timur-i-Lenk (Tamerlane), the Crimean Khanate, and the Manchurians. It's an overall good book, though a few of the stuff isn't gone into enough or at all, and some of the claims I didn't agree with (his discussion about the Sarmatian lancers in particular).

The Jochid legitamacy has been over played by most authors I feel, it adds a little spice. No doubt there was a fair amount of gossip and there may have been some resentment but the only evidence of this is Chagadai's outburst, the rest is assumption. Most sources suggest that Batu refused the Qa'anate due to his questionable legitamacy, I think he was happy enough with his new domain and his position as virtual co-ruler with his good friend and nominee, Mangku. Unfortunately, Mangku died too soon; the purges were still fresh in the mind

You're probably right, though I can't imagine it helped things. Batu probably was content with the West, since I doubt that rumors of illegimintacy would really have stopped any one determined to become Khan.

[Aenlic]

...like the Mamluks (many who were Qipchaqs)...

This much I knew, at least! Baibars was a Kipchaq captured by the Mongls and sold into slavery and ended up the greatest Mameluke ruler. Baibars rule, the first Mameluke dynasty, the Bahri, was named after an all Kipchaq Mameluke regiment.

I'll check out that book too. There seems to be very little information on the early steppes peoples, pre-Mongol, the western Turkic tribes and the southernmost Finno-Ugric/Baltic and early Slavic tribes like the Magyars. Some on the Bulgars, Volga and Danube, not much on the Cuman/Kipchaq/Polovtsi and even less on the Pecheneg/Patzinaks. These are the groups in which I'm most interested.

[Orda Khan]

Hello Aenlic,
Your subject choice is going to prove a problem, most of what we know about the steppe nomads is what was written about them by the sedentary nations. Even with the better known Huns, there is precious little reliable information and what there is, is tinged with sedentary bias and suspicion. My own interest in the Mongols has been a lifelong study well over forty years and there are still questions that remain unanswered. In particular, the Jochid line has been generally lumped under one heading, The Golden Horde. That particular identification is quite misrepresentative, Orda was never 'officially' part of the 'Qipchaq Khanate' and held the lands originally granted to his father. The 'White Horde' or Ulus of Orda stretched northwards from the Jaxartes to the Ulugh Tao mountains and from the Irtish, westward above Lake Balkhash and the Aral Sea. It included the Ili valley, the area where Guyug had demanded Batu meet him. Though Orda was one of the ten Princes in the Western campaign and had commanded in Poland and Hungary, he gained nothing from the new conquests. Batu, whose lands were further west and originally his in name only as they were yet to be brought under Mongol rule, was elevated from a lowly position with a limited army to King maker and the most powerful person in the Empire. It appears that Orda may have been very like his father, distancing himself from the limelight. There is a journal written for an Asiatic Historical Society that I must finally get my hands on, it gives an insight into the Ulus of Orda and should be just the thing I need for some of the unanswered questions.
I hope you have some luck in finding the sources you require for your own interest. The steppe nomads are a fascinating subject

......Orda

[Aenlic]

Agreed. One of the great obstacles to the study of ancient anthropology is that much of our knowledge of various groups depends wholly upon the impressions of outside peoples who had contact with them; and whose prejudices color those impressions. They were often regarded merely as unimportant barbarians by the writers. This dismissive attitude by the ancient writers of history has affected how we viewed these peoples. Slowly, we're overcoming that prejudice - I hope.

Thus we know nothing about the Sea Peoples except the very little recorded in Egypt. We are just beginning to learn that some of our assumptions about the Celtic peoples were entirely wrong and based upon the faulty assumptions of the Greeks and Romans. As you pointed out, our Western impressions of the Mongols was skewed entirely by our limited encounters with the western Mongol groups and almost entirely devoid of information about others. This problem is very pronounced with the steppes peoples and others further east because there is so little archaeological evidence to work with to balance out the impressions, often mistaken, of contemporary writers. Their very cultures are a hinderance to study because they left so little accurate information behind. What they did leave behind is just now coming into better study, as our methods and understanding improves; and because the world has better access to areas formerly behind the Iron Curtain now.

[jurchen fury]

There seems to be very little information on the early steppes peoples, pre-Mongol, the western Turkic tribes

There's actually tons of tertiary and secondary sources in Western languages about the Skythians of Ukraine, ie especially books about their art with pictures and all but, as once again one moves farther and farther east, one encounters less and less about the steppe peoples, so much so that by the time one reaches Semirechye, one gains nothing by looking at tertiary and most secondary sources but have to dig them up from obscure primary sources otherwise not devoted to the ethnography of steppe peoples.

Same goes for the European Huns. From the romantic and biased books about "ugly Huns" in the 19th century to modern books about how supposedly they were the "greatest steppe people because they beat the Romans" and other similar BS.

For the time period post-200 BC and on basically any steppe peoples trans-Caspian Sea to the east, one has to rely almost totally on Chinese sources. Polities such as Wusun and Da Yuezhi rarely get mentioned in standard books or those fancy books that hit the shelves of popular bookstores; one has to go to huge university or college libraries to find obscure sources about them. Polities such as Kangju are basically almost unknown even in many great secondary sources, despite the fact that they played a much greater and important historical role than more well-known peoples.

And again, the "western Turkic tribes" like the Seljuqs or Ottomans are pretty famous in the West, but what seems to be really obscure in common fancy books are tribes such as the Qarluqs, Turgesh, Turkut, Tokuz-Oguz, Dingling, Gaoju, Tiele, pre-840 Uygurs, etc.

early Slavic tribes like the Magyars.

The Magyars were probably Finno-Uralic rather than Slavic, though they were culturally Turkic, probably influenced by the Turkut.

[Watchman]

Hungarian is in any case a Fenno-Ugric language (and as such not Indo-European). The theories I've seen tend to talk about a Turkish steppe nation - called Ogurs or Oghuz or something along those lines, often assumed to be the root word for both "hungarian" and "ugric" - on a westwards drift mixing and eventually being virtually wholesale absorbed into the Fenno-Ugric Magyars dwelling around the upper reaches of the Volga, the resulting nation later migrating first southwards to play around with the Rus and the Khazars and eventually being pushed into Central Europe by the Pechenegs.