Sunset over the Elysée

[Rodion Romanovich]

The problem is not that a political wing has discredited itself. Political shifts happen all the time. No, the shock is that 'In real terms, we simply do not have a government at the moment.'

And the real issue, more apparent and of more concern within France than cliches abroad would have - and the cause of much soul-searching - is that


Other than my recommendation of it as a well-informed article to bring you up-to-date, I do not know how to turn this into a constructive discussion, but any comments are appreciated.

- The current government has been weak in not being able to enforce a completely legitimate reform (the job reform), and weak in not caring to explain why that job reform even improves the situation for the young rather than making it worse (at least in my interpretation it's an improvement for the young, but if there are strong arguments against that opinion I'm all ears).
- As for the no to the EU constitution I fail to see why that would be a sign of a distaster for France. If it's both what the people and the government support, then I suppose it's good that they said no to it. The problem with saying no to the new EU constitution is really that it implies making the EU more firmly united, which in the long run could turn Europe into a single, large country, which isn't a good idea. The security of citizens, the freedom, and allowing different political and cultural opinions in different regions is something that gradually disappears if the union becomes too firm. Rather, EU is a good place to discuss things that must be decided together - environmental treaties, trade deals, and similar. As such EU doesn't need to be firmer than it is today to fill it's function. What's negative about a no to the EU constitution is that the new constitution proposal at the same time would increase the democracy within EU - basically today the leaders of EU aren't democratically elected, which is dangerous. Only the parliament, which at this time has no formal power at all other than talking, is elected, but since there are other institutions that hold the power there's presently no democracy to speak of within EU. While the Union doesn't need to be firmer, it needs to be more democratic. I believe that's what most nay-sayers are complaining about, and it's a valid complaint IMO.

There is IMO a good hope for a better government by next election - the problems aren't more serious than that they can be overcome. France still has quite a few non-extremist parties to choose from. But there are quite a few actions the current government could do to improve the situation already now - does the constitution make it easy enough to start new parties to make up for the parties that aren't considered modern enough? If not, a constitutional change to make starting new parties easier would improve things a lot - people have less abilities to complain and riot about lack of democracy if democracy is increased not only formally but also practically, so it would apart from increasing the safety against extremists also calm down current violent riot problems as I see it. Or why not allow for referendums about major political questions - such as the new labor law, and the EU constitution? Also they need to encourage the peaceful demonstrations, and firmly use methods such as water cannons against demonstrations that end up vandalizing common property, throwing cobble stones etc., while encouraging those demonstrations that are carried out peacefully. Whenever arresting people (who throw cobbles) for using violence against a still legitimate government (as the current one is according to the constitution), also mention how none of the peaceful demonstrations - even those demonstrations that were about the same political questions the violent ones were about - were stopped in the same way. Finally, why doesn't the government try to find out more about where the dissent lies? If there are so many demonstrants ready to complain, they should be able to state what makes them so discontent. If they have no solution for the problems they're complaining about, they aren't in a position to call the government bad. If they have solutions that would work in practise, if they presented them (the government could encourage them to do so by letter or political Internet forums or similar), the government could take inspiration from them and solve the problems a bit more. I think a coming French government has a realistic and good chance to solve the problems that France are facing at the moment. Nobody really know where all the current dissent comes from. Find out, make statistics, and present the statistics. Currently the traditional "bend to the will of violent protests, and ignore the peaceful protests" mistake is being made - it's usually taken by violent people as a sign of weakness that only fuels more violence. We all know that demonstrants who under circumstances like these, where there's no urgent crisis - France isn't at war with anyone or anything like that, there's no immediate threat that must be removed in a matter of a day, a week, or even an entire year - demonstrants who just vandalize common property and throw cobbles aren't demonstrants representing a political view, but a type of people who travel around to all large cities to find a situation where they can vandalize things without risk getting caught.

edit: changed some serious typos that altered the meaning of the post

[Louis VI the Fat]

Finally, why doesn't the government try to find out more about where the dissent lies? If there are so many demonstrants ready to complain, they should be able to state what makes them so discontent.

Because, and that is part of the tragedy, what the demonstraters want is to not move on. What France desperately craves, is to move ahead, to get out of the deadlock.

The student demonstrations recieved some attention and praise from abroad as a sign of vibrancy. In reality, they were utterly reactionary. Here was the youth, the future of France: rioting with the demand that there be no change at all. Students, whose sole ambition is to become a civil servant and get a job for life.

Dear God, the spectacle of a conservative goverment, led by a 74-year old, being under fire from teenagers demanding that their government be less progressive.

The EU-referendum was more of the same. A scared, reactionary bourgeoisie voting no to whatever they can. The biggest political adventure of our time thwarted for fear of a few Polish plumbers and less government subsidies.

[Louis VI the Fat]

France seems to be edging towards a social evolution

No, social evolution is an Anglo thing. France is a reactionary country despised by it's progressive intellectual elite, who sometimes get things moving by managing to sway the population into a revolution.

France only moves forward by ruptures. We need another 1968.

I never paid much attention to France.

But you're a man of intelligence and curiousity, and the world is a big place. It's never too late to aqcuire new fields of interests, like finding out how some people survive without 5 lbs steaks, rifles and cheap gasoline.


'France sure as hell won't give a damn what America's policies are.'
Hey, France is obsessed with America. You hold the place that is our's by birthright.

[Brenus]

I think the problem isn’t only in France. But in France it is more obvious.
Chirac was elected President because no choice. It was the Crook or the Fascist, the cholera or the Plague. Well, you can recover from the cholera (wit a lot of perfusions)…
The problem is after that he feinted to consider and to recognise this fact. He acted like if hew was really President by the will pf the Country.
That could be extended to the all lot of politicians. When elected, they take the right to vote in our names without our consent.
I vote against the EU constitution because I didn’t want THIS Europe. I didn’t vote against the Polish plumber, but I want the Polish Plumber to have the same right (and salary) than the French one.
I want a real Europe for the people, not only the market… Do you know that I can’t, being in England< take an insurance for my car in France. Nevertheless, a company can open a bank account in the Caiman Island without problem…
I get no subsidies from the France or England by the way…

France got the same problem than most of other countries. There are NO alternatives. The so-called Left wings are de facto the same than the “conservative” parties. Same politics, some goals, same schools, same training, some vocabulary, they are friends.

Managers firing people got HUGE rewards, disdain and patronising are the rules, and people who don’t accept this are archaic… You have to accept the modernity, except in this case modernity lay in the 19th Century.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Always the more socialist of the two of us, hey?

About Chirac you're spot on: he misses legitimacy and fails to recognize it. Then again, what is he to do? Hide in his office and pretend he is not governing?

There are NO alternatives. The so-called Left wings are de facto the same than the “conservative” parties. Same politics, some goals, same schools, same training, some vocabulary, they are friends.
I agree again. Nonetheless, I think that the populace is an even bigger problem. They refuse alternatives, they are the ones preventing change. Who cares about politicians and &#233;narques. In the end, we get what we deserve.

I vote against the EU constitution because I didn’t want THIS Europe. I didn’t vote against the Polish plumber, but I want the Polish Plumber to have the same right (and salary) than the French one.
I'm going to be awfully impolite and question your motive: somewhere deep down, is it not fear for your own position and not concern for the Polish that made you vote no?
Furthermore, if you don't want this Europe, and few would indeed, would you not agree that it is that no-vote that created the deadlock we currently find ourselves in?

[Strike For The South]

How can a country that gave us the cruton be in trouble. I refuse to beilive it. Well whatever happens wether the muslims take over or the economy splodes. Keep it under raps until about 2011 by that time I figure I could go to France and take down every French flag and put up a Texan one, HA

[GoreBag]

No, social evolution is an Anglo thing. France is a reactionary country despised by it's progressive intellectual elite, who sometimes get things moving by managing to sway the population into a revolution.

Isn't that part of what France needs to leave behind?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Isn't that part of what France needs to leave behind?

You mean, become a normal, decent country...?



Nah...

[Ianofsmeg16]

You mean, become a normal, decent country...?



Nah...

Another war with England would sort out France