New Video in German Magazine

[Sir Robin]

Have not seen this posted yet so I'll mention it here.

There is a CD in the German magazine "Gamestar(sp?)" that has a new video not available anywhere else.

The video appears to show two "battles" though it only shows the deployment of the first.

It appears that the battles are Agincourt and a battle between Saladin and Richard.

Pros:
1. Longbowmen can place sharpened stakes in front of them "during" deployment.

2. Troops hit by flaming artillery have better "i'm burning" fire affects than RTW.

3. Troop movement and combat animations are greatly improved over RTW.

4. Troops also have more "idle" animations then RTW, even noticed an english soldier bending to flex the knees.

Maybes:
1. Morale units are in. The battle between Saladin and Richard had a small unit with a very large cross on a wagon. Personally I do not like giving up a unit slot for a morale or assassin unit.

Cons:
1. Unit speed is still way to fast. The reviewer ordered some knights forward at the double and they ran into Saladin's troops coming the other way before they got there.

2. Kill speed appears just as ugly. IIRC there were five knights and one general grouped in the fight. In less than thirty seconds three had dropped out of the group because they were routing.

3. Insta rout appears to still be happening. Though the reviewer never gave his knights the "attack/charge" order so they were basically caught flatfooted. Still five knights with the general among them should have held out a lot longer.

4. My personal rub is "line cohesion" Saladin's battle line was disintigrating into individual unit attacks before they even reached Richard's infantry line.

Hopes:
1. This is not a "mostly finished" version of the tactical AI. Though considering how much time they have left it could very well be just that.

2. Movement Speeds, Kill Rates, and Morale are not basically imported "direct" from RTW. If so an additional hope is that they can be modded without messing up the units movement and combat animations.

3. The reviewer was playing the battle in "Arcade" mode.

Final thought:
1. While visually the game is a great advance over RTW. As far as gameplay, tactically at least, the advance appears to be far less.

[Basileus]

Thanks for the info mate, lets hope things improve then :D

[screwtype]

Could be that the video is a little speeded up too, to try and make it all look more action packed and exciting. But by and large this is not encouraging news.

What would really make a big difference IMO is if they made such things as movement rate and kill speed fully moddable. Then it wouldn't matter if the vanilla game is too fast, because the modders could wind it right back to MTW or STW speeds if they were so inclined. Full moddability of such factors would be the best solution to this problem. I hope CA have realized this, but I have my doubts.

[Duke John]

Killspeed can already be modified. However some mods prefer to fix it by giving lots of morale to the troops.

Movementrate could also have been moddeable if we had a proper tool for importing and exporting animations. CA hasn't released it during the last 2 years so I have little hope that this will change. Especially with CA saying that they will give the same modding support with tools as they had done with R:TW (that is 0, CA!)

My personal rub is "line cohesion" Saladin's battle line was disintigrating into individual unit attacks before they even reached Richard's infantry line.

Line cohesion should have been the first thing they coded for the AI. That doesn't sound promising at all.

[Lorenzo_H]

The very fact that Saladin is in the game makes me drool with anticipation...

[Peasant Phill]

3. The reviewer was playing the battle in "Arcade" mode.

Are you sure about that? Besides I'm still wondering if the AI, movement speed and kill ratio in the "reality" mode would be any better.

[ivoignob]

Thanks Sir Robin!

I found the video at this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoC7glqQko

[Monk]

Just watched the vid, thanks for the link ivoignob...

The Ai appeared to have good cohesion until the player charged his cavalry. It's a little hard to get a good picture of the entire battle; but it appears as if the AI only faltered in its movement when it tried to react to the human tactic employed.

Hopefully that will be fixed before release..

[Zatoichi]

Having watched the video, I have to say that it looks wonderful - the animations on the trebuchets etc are fantastic.

The German fellow playing the game was not trying to win, rather he was showing off the different units and the graphics, hence his abandonment of the cavalry he left to get slaughtered. He never did give them an attack command, and so they are killed much quicker because they are not benefitting from their charge bonus, unlike the Egyptian cavalry that are attacking them - so that muddies the waters a bit on the actual rate of kill speed. The unit speeds look to be about the same - can't say I'm entirely happy with that.

I am more concerned over the response of the AI's army to the player's deployment of cavalry. Up until the point the player ordered his cavalry to advance, the AI's army held its line. However, it seemed like all the AI units individually decided at the last minute to turn towards the player's cav, exposing their flanks to his infantry. So the AI looks to be the same as in RTW at the moment.

Hopefully the AI will get the work it needs in the coming months - CA have stated that it will be improved. The AI in the battle is presumably not the final version, as the E3 show presentation was labelled as pre-alpha by CA, implying lots more work is required on the whole game.

The game does look absolutely fantastic. I just hope it plays as well.

[Rodion Romanovich]

They said AI was going to be done from now on, which implies it wasn't ready. Hopefully that means battle lines will be more robust in the final game. As for kill and move rates, I suppose movement speed has to do a bit with the animations and that doesn't sound to good if they've started making plenty of too fast animations already. As for combat speed that can be modded easily, but I hope for the sake of the MP part of the game that they are decent in vanilla MTW2 because very, very few MP players have the guts to install a mod for MP (although many use mods for SP), so there are very few opponents to play with if you run any of the mods.

[Peasant Phill]

Did anybody notice that the video featured the battles of some of the screenshots?

I thought the movement speed was fast but not to fast (mind you I play MTW at double speed to avoid 3 hour battles). But I agree to be realistic that they should march slower.

I have faith in CA that they'll be able to solve the problem of the broken line. I think the problem is the feature that soldiers look for a enemy to engage. If this happens on unit scale it means the end the cohesion.

This has been said before but the actual fighting ended very fast. The line had just clashed and units were already routing. I'm not even talking about the English knights although one should expect a bit more resilience from these elite warriors.

[ivoignob]

Were cannons used by crusaders in the early medieval era? I have no idea, thats why I'm asking... I thought they were used some time later, at least not during the Saladin period...?

[screwtype]

They said AI was going to be done from now on, which implies it wasn't ready.

They did? That's not what I recall. IIRC what they've been saying all this time is that they've been working "very hard" on the AI. And now you tell me they just said they're only about to start work on it?

If so, what do we make of their earlier statements? Empty hype?

Also it seems a little late to start working on the AI now when the game is only three months or so from release. Are we about to get shortchanged by CA again? I find your comments quite worrisome Legio, and I hope you're mistaken...

[Lord Adherbal]

they said the game was almost finished already and that now they would be spending time on polishing and AI etc. Not that that means anything, seeing is believing. The demo better has some actual AI, not just a script.

Were cannons used by crusaders in the early medieval era? I have no idea, thats why I'm asking... I thought they were used some time later, at least not during the Saladin period...?

crusades were 1100-1300, cannons were 1400-1450.

I hope CA includes Eras for MP again. I'd hate to see cannons bombarding my huscarls and feudal knights every time.

[screwtype]

Okay, just watched the video. From a distance, most of the animations look great, and very authentic. The cannon animations though, are completely wrong, they totally defy the laws of physics, bouncing around like they have no mass at all, and in all the wrong directions. This is the second time I've noticed these really goofy cannon animations. I sure hope they don't make it to the final release, they are quite an immersion buster.

Can't say that I saw much in the way of insta-routing though, or any of the other problems people have mentioned, since the camera appeared to scarcely dwell on the combat itself.

That wagon with the huge cross is also quite ludicrous. And I'm not too happy about all this siege artillery in a field battle, with the exception of the cannon.

[Husar]

Also it seems a little late to start working on the AI now when the game is only three months or so from release.

June - November = 3 months???

Well, it seems a little late, but they may polish the AI.
And concerning the kill speed and all that stuff, we don´t even know what the unit stats in the battle where, whether they are final or not and so on and on, IIRC, balancing is one of the last things done in a game.
But I like the movement speeds, to me they look realistic and I don´t need to wait for hours until I reach the enemy(exept if some rebels hide on a far away mountain in RTW).

[ivoignob]

That wagon with the huge cross is also quite ludicrous. And I'm not too happy about all this siege artillery in a field battle, with the exception of the cannon.

Adherbal had confirmed my worries. Cannons were not used during the crusades. And according to the player this one is a crusade battle.

[Ibn Munqidh]

Nice movie, thanks Sir Robin for the heads up, thanks ivoignob for the link. The matter with the cannons, and richard and saladin, I guess the player mentioned saladin symbolically, as no historical battle such as Jaffa, Arsuf, and the many skirmishes that took place, none of these battles included cannons, which were produced in Egypt almost a century later.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Adherbal had confirmed my worries. Cannons were not used during the crusades. And according to the player this one is a crusade battle.

Its alright mate I think its just a custom battle I wouldn't worry about it.

[CBR]

Its alright mate I think its just a custom battle I wouldn't worry about it.

If you want to play MP then you better worry. But that is the effect of having no eras so no big surprise really.


CBR

[Rodion Romanovich]

They did? That's not what I recall. IIRC what they've been saying all this time is that they've been working "very hard" on the AI. And now you tell me they just said they're only about to start work on it?

If so, what do we make of their earlier statements? Empty hype?

Also it seems a little late to start working on the AI now when the game is only three months or so from release. Are we about to get shortchanged by CA again? I find your comments quite worrisome Legio, and I hope you're mistaken...

They said they had finished everything but AI now, so that the entire rest of the time will be devoted to AI. That hopefully means they have more time left for AI than they've spent on it so far... I think it's possible to fix an AI in the time they have left, but if their artists have made animations and stuff for too fast movements then there's little hope movement speed will be fixed by release - which worries me more at the moment...
On the positive side the artillery has very nice animations and doesn't seem overpowered in kill-ratio this time (impossible to tell at this time whether morale is overpowered or not).

[Wandarah]

personally i thought the fact that the cavalry was charged by infantry and cavalry on both a frontal and right flank had more to do with them routing.

as for chain routing, i dont think so - 3 of the 6 units that were attacked still fought on.

yes, the unit speed does look quick though. however i dont think they will 'fix' it, as i dont think they think its broken.

[screwtype]

June - November = 3 months???

Amazon actually says it's August, but then they are always wrong. I heard the release date was September.

Whatever the release date actually is, they must surely have to spend the last few weeks quality testing, so it seems to me there would not be that much time left to work on the AI now.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to hope for the best...

[edyzmedieval]

The vid looks really sweet.

By the way, don't trust Amazon. They always give false dates to earn money. Release date is in November. Till then, let's enjoy the RTW mods.

[Duke John]

Till then? I think many people will continue to play NTW2 because of its superior gameplay! I mean we've got not only R:TW's suicidal generals, but also suicidal officers!

[DukeofSerbia]

Thanks Sir Robin!

I found the video at this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoC7glqQko

Thanks man.

I just watched video (without sound and music) and I am not impressed. As somebody noticed, there are cannons in time of Crusades.

For me, it's just graphicly improved Rome TW and nothing more.

[Zatoichi]

Would any German speakers care to translate some of the comentary for us? I feel I'm missing a trick here - there could be useful information in there regarding the feel of the game, what's done and what's missing etc.

[shifty157]

I noticed that the banners were animated and flapping in the wind. Granted the animation wasnt very realistic at all but i was pleased to find this.

[Sir Robin]

@Peasant Phill
That was part of my "hopes." I hoped the reviewer was actually playing in arcade mode since there didn't seem to be much room for tactics once the battle began. Of course, never having played the arcade mode myself I don't know what the difference is in RTW.

Additional:

I've been watching the vid more and I am pretty sure neither are historic battles.

The "deployment phase" shown for what I thought was Agincourt has english troops with gunpowder weapons in the front lines. Pretty sure the english did not have those at the time. Not to mention that the Saladin vs Richard battle also included gunpowder weapons.

The more I watch the more I am convinced these are "doesn't this look cool" engagements.

Also, one possible saving grace on my disappointment with the AI.

The running english knight units have the general with them. Facing the turks/arabs the general is on the far left. Perhaps the AI decided that taking out the english general was more important than maintaining line cohesion?

Still that opens them up to being hit on the flank and rear by the sizeable and as yet uncommitted english infantry.

Still that is my hopeful reasoning as to why arab/turk line disintigrated like that.

Still, especially with the general present, I would expect them to hold out a lot longer than they did.

[Callahan9119]

i assume the AI will stink....them saying otherwise is like every band hyping its newest cd as the heaviest stuff they have ever done....it never is