Interesting WWII facts

[Brenus]

“one of german pilots got over 300 planes destroyed”: Erich Hartman, 352 victories. He wasn’t the only one (Galland, Rall, Nowotny etc).
The big amount of German As is due to several factors: First, some of hem fought during the Spanish Civil War in the Condor Legion with Franco’s Nationalists. Second, at the beginning of the war, their opponents weren’t so well equipped. It is not to deny the courage of the Polish pilots, but a PZPL couldn’t fight against the Me. 109, or the obsolete air forces from Yugoslavia, Holland, Belgium and the early Soviet Air Force. Even France and the UK had some of their planes which could consider as equal as or even better than the Germans. So, some victories were just sitting ducks…
Third, the German never withdraw their pilot from the Front. The allied used their As to teach other pilots to fight.
At the end of the war, you had either Untouchable Germans pilots, either easy target ones.
Same story happened with the Japanese.

“their bomber pilots destroyed over 500 russian tanks” Hans Rudel on a Ju-87 G1. He destroyed around 150 various artillery pieces, 519 tanks, around 1000 various vehicles, 70 landing crafts, 2 Lavochkin La-3 fighters, Il-2 Stormovik and sunk Battleship "Marat", 2 Cruisers and a Destroyer.

[Mithradates]

Heres a dubious one, world war two only ended in 1989 when Germany officialy became a country again after the fall of communism, and therefore the allies could declare peace. True im not sure but interesting.

[English assassin]

Heres a dubious one, world war two only ended in 1989 when Germany officialy became a country again after the fall of communism, and therefore the allies could declare peace. True im not sure but interesting.

This is the idea of the "long war", seeing 1919-1989 European history as a contest between authoritarian and liberal political systems for hegemony. Its not so much a fact as a way of thinking about facts.

Seeing as history did not "end" in 1989, contrary to the hype, and authoritarian political systems seem to be just as much in evidence as ever before, (albeit many sponsored by religion rather than states) in my humble and ill informed opinion, it hasn't turned out to be a very accurate perspective.

[Brutus]

Technically, Germany only became one country again in 1990.

[Avicenna]

This might be going a bit offtopic, but the same happened with the Third Punic War. It was only officially ended in 1985, when the mayors of Rome and Tunis signed a peace treaty after 2200 years of officially being at war.

[Franconicus]

“one of german pilots got over 300 planes destroyed”: Erich Hartman, 352 victories. He wasn’t the only one (Galland, Rall, Nowotny etc).
The big amount of German As is due to several factors: First, some of hem fought during the Spanish Civil War in the Condor Legion with Franco’s Nationalists. Second, at the beginning of the war, their opponents weren’t so well equipped. It is not to deny the courage of the Polish pilots, but a PZPL couldn’t fight against the Me. 109, or the obsolete air forces from Yugoslavia, Holland, Belgium and the early Soviet Air Force. Even France and the UK had some of their planes which could consider as equal as or even better than the Germans. So, some victories were just sitting ducks…
Third, the German never withdraw their pilot from the Front. The allied used their As to teach other pilots to fight.
At the end of the war, you had either Untouchable Germans pilots, either easy target ones.

Brenus,
If you take Hartman as an example: he started his 'career' in 1942. There were no more easy targets. The Russian fighters were as good as the German ones.
I think the main reason is most German pilots stayed in combat until the end. Another reason is that they, especially in the east, had plenty of targets. Hartman could make three or four sorties a day and pick up one or two planes. The RAF or USAAF pilots escorted the big bombers. They flew only few missions per week, some missions without contact with Germans at all. Hard to get 300 scores that way. Another reason: German pilots often fought over or near their own territory. So they could return to combat even after being shot down. If memory serves, Hartman was shot down three times.

[Brenus]

“If you take Hartman as an example” I didn’t. I just answer a question about a pilot who got more than 300 victories.
But the analyse is still valid, one tree can’t hide the forest…

[Mount Suribachi]

Certainly in the early part of the war German pilots were on the whole better trained and had better tactics. That coupled with the fact that they stayed on the front lines till they died or were captured and fought against a numerically superior enemy helps up their scores.

Whereas RAF/USAAF pilots would be rotated out after a tour and either used as an instructor or promoted to fly a desk. And they spent most of the war fighting over occupied territory,so if they were shot down "the war is over for you Tommy!". Bob Stanford Tuck had nearly 30 kills in just a few months between Dunkirk & the end of the BoB. How many kills would he have got if he had not been shot down on a Rhubarb in early '41?

Lastly, one cannot discount the effects of inflated scores - either for propaganda or the usual over-claiming (as happened in all AF's). H-J Marseilles was meant to have shot down 17 RAF aircraft in one day in N.Africa, yet RAF records show they never lost a single plane that day.....

[Kääpäkorven Konsuli]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tornio
"During the attack on Tornio, Finnish troops liberated a German supply depot containing a large quantity of brandy... as a result the advance was halted for day until the soldiers had sobered up."
Also dozens of german soldiers were able to escape during that time.

Edit: Eer, were did those two other posts come from?

[Kääpäkorven Konsuli]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tornio
"During the attack on Tornio, Finnish troops liberated a German supply depot containing a large quantity of brandy... as a result the advance was halted for day until the soldiers had sobered up."
Also dozens of german soldiers were able to escape during that time.

[Kääpäkorven Konsuli]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tornio
"During the attack on Tornio, Finnish troops liberated a German supply depot containing a large quantity of brandy... as a result the advance was halted for day until the soldiers had sobered up."
Also dozens of german soldiers were able to escape during that time.

[hoom]

Late in the war the Germans were ramming bombers too.
They even had some planes modified with armoured leading edges to help them with slicing through wings/tails, the intent being that the plane would be able to land & do the same thing again.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

# A number of air crewmen died of farts. (ascending to 20,000 ft. in an un-pressurized aircraft causes intestinal gas to expand 300%!)

im srry for the family when the segeant has to tell the family the news

"Ma'm your son has died in a farting accident"

[Avicenna]

im srry for the family when the segeant has to tell the family the news

"Ma'm your son has died in a farting accident"

It happened outside of war as well. This person, I forgot his name, was a musician, and his instrument was his bum-hole and the farts were his music. Apparently, one day he farted one time too many, and the pressure or something caused an artery to pop and bye-bye Mr Fart-Man.

[English assassin]

That was Le Petomane. UK posters over 30 will be absolutely delighted to lear that a film of his life was made, with Leonard Rossiter playing the flatulent hero. A role he was born for surely.

http://www.ljhelms.com/pet/_pujol/thestory/retro.htm

Through a weird mixture of motions, extortions and contortions, Pujol could "inhale" as much as two quarts of air (as measured by Dr. Marcel Baudouin in 1892) through his distended bottom. The young man quickly found that by varying the force with which he expelled this air, he could produce musical notes of varying pitch and timbre. He soon mastered simple tunes, and found himself entertaining astonished school chums with impromptu Bel cantos and arias.

Sort of thing that could happen to anyone, that.

He died peacefully of old age rather than as a result of farting though.

[KrooK]

During Battle of Britain polish pilots fought together with Brits but sometimes they got problems with british culture. One of them had no ammo into his fighter and decided to land on british airfield. Every second was important because Germans attacked like mads. When he did it, he noticed that airfield is ... completely empty.

After searching for a while, he entered shelter and notice that all Brits are there. When he asked why they don't fight (it was one of the hardest days), they replied "5 o'clock". All airfield crew (even with AA guns crew) was into shelter calmly drinking tea........

[Hepcat]

Typical

During the Battle of Britain Prince Bernard of the Netherlands also flew a spitfire for the RAF and flew over occupied Europe in a B-24 bomber attacking V-1 launch pads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_...he_Netherlands

[ChewieTobbacca]

THis predates the typical 1939-1945 WW2 but during the Second SIno-Japanese War, there were 8 Chinese divisions that had been trained and equipped by the Germans. Germany had once been China's close ally in the fight against communists and Germany wanted China's manpower to fight hte Soviet Union - but the war against Japan set plans back and soon Germany realized that Japan would be more modernized and ready to fight the Soviets than the Chinese would be.

[Avicenna]

It turns out my friend had forgotten the fact.

In fact, it was some time in the 19th century, and it was Liechtenstein, not Luxembourg, who had sent her army to fight the Italians. They started with 40 or 80, and returned with 41 or 81.

[Hepcat]

This hardly constitutes as a WWII fact, it just shows the British character (I think), my grandmother was 12 in 1940 and was living in London with her family. During the blitz her cousins were sent to the countryside but returned because they found it far too boring. So she never left London for the entire duration of the war.

[TigerVX]

I remember watching a WWII program on the history channel (Is there anything else on?). It talked about Churchills visit to the North African front. During this time, the British intercepted a message from Rommel to Hitler that he had no tanks and needed more badly. Chuchill, seeing this weakness, ordered an attack. Of course, however, the British attackers soon found out Rommel had plenty of tanks. He only told Hilter he didn't have any so he could recieve more!

And about the German/Soviet Airforce, it was pretty lopsided. At the Battle of Kursk, a major Russian Victory, Germany lost 200 planes. In retrospect, the Soviet Union lost 1000. Thus, it can be said that German to Soviet air loses were extremely gapping. However, despite this, the Allied Ace of Aces (IE, the Allied Fighter Pilot with the most kills out of -any- allied Nation, whether they be Brit, American, or otherwise) was the Russian pilot Ivan Kozhedub. He had a total of 62 kills to his name, including an ME-262 Jet Fighter. Also, he has two P-51 Mustangs to his name oddly enough. During one of his flights, he spotted a box of B-17's being attacked by German planes. He attempted to aid in their defense, but the escorting fighters thought that his La-5F was infact an attacking FW-190. When fired upon, Ivan had no choice but to return fire. He wasn't able to flee from the unfortunate mistake until he shot down two escorting P-51 mustangs. One pilot bailed out, one was killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Kozhedub

[Kraxis]

And about the German/Soviet Airforce, it was pretty lopsided. At the Battle of Kursk, a major Russian Victory, Germany lost 200 planes. In retrospect, the Soviet Union lost 1000. Thus, it can be said that German to Soviet air loses were extremely gapping. However, despite this, the Allied Ace of Aces (IE, the Allied Fighter Pilot with the most kills out of -any- allied Nation, whether they be Brit, American, or otherwise) was the Russian pilot Ivan Kozhedub. He had a total of 62 kills to his name, including an ME-262 Jet Fighter. Also, he has two P-51 Mustangs to his name oddly enough. During one of his flights, he spotted a box of B-17's being attacked by German planes. He attempted to aid in their defense, but the escorting fighters thought that his La-5F was infact an attacking FW-190. When fired upon, Ivan had no choice but to return fire. He wasn't able to flee from the unfortunate mistake until he shot down two escorting P-51 mustangs. One pilot bailed out, one was killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Kozhedub

Typical... If he had been British it would have made me laugh. They seem to be the ones to get all the 'friendly' fire from the US.

Most of Germany's highest scoring aces were relatively late comers. I personally think the reason for this is that the Soviets began to pump more and more planes out, while the Germans had less and less. So around mid 43 the numbers were so lopsided that the good German pilots could bag more than ten a day. The highest I have encountered so far that is confirmed is poor Hubert Strassl who bagged 15 on the first afternoon of Zitadelle, ten the next day, then two and finally three befrore getting killed, 30 planes in four days (added to he previous kills he ended up with 67).
Also the early aces were fewer and fewer, combatattrition and promotions took them from the field (Galland was promoted away from the cockpit for isntance).

It is interesting to note that the Germans didn't really think you were a good ace until you had crossed somewhere around 50-60 kills. That says something. That is more than most of the best Allied aces, or Japanese for that matter.

[Mount Suribachi]

It says that they stayed in combat for a long time and had a lot of poorly trained enemies to shoot at.

As I pointed out earlier, Bob Stanford Tuck shot down nearly 30 german planes between Dunkirk and the end of the BoB. USAAF pilots were rotated out after they finished their tour. Some pilots in 44-45 flew a whole tour and never saw a German plane.

[Kraxis]

It says that they stayed in combat for a long time and had a lot of poorly trained enemies to shoot at.

As I pointed out earlier, Bob Stanford Tuck shot down nearly 30 german planes between Dunkirk and the end of the BoB. USAAF pilots were rotated out after they finished their tour. Some pilots in 44-45 flew a whole tour and never saw a German plane.

And Mölders would certainly have beaten that as he managed to down 28 RAF fighters during the BoB alone (he was captured in France onthe 5th of June, then wounded on his first combatmission after his return, though managed to down the offending Spitfire). Had he had the same time as Tuck he woul have gotten if not 40 then 45 kills in the same period.
The Allied pilots had plenty of inexperienced enemies to shoot down when they came with their large bomberstreams in 44 and 45. It wasn't until 45 that the bombers were largely free to enter Germany. Some days it would be empty skies, the next there would be swarms of German fighters to greet them. It all depended on when you were slated to fly.

If however the fighterpilots were among the taxi-service (flying around on call) over the frontlines, then the chances of meeting German planes was rather slim. Especially when you consider the number of Allied fighters and fighter-bombers. A few hundred German planes against thousands of Allied planes... you hadto be lucky/unlucky to meet them.
Also, the Russians were not easy targets per se. When experienced formations were transferred from the west to the east in late 44 and early 45 they suffered serious losses to the Russians. Of course they gave a good account of themselves, but they suffered far more than the 'local' Gruppen. The same happened when the roles were reversed.
The two theaters were different to the point of being a superb ace in one place wasn't a secure thing on the other. Even Hartmann only managed to shoot down two Mustangs when he was posted to defend Rumania's oil fields.

A few interesting facts (all from the East Front).

Highest scoring fighter-bomber pilot in air to air combat:
Leutnant August Lamber with 116 kills.

Highest number of kills done by a reconnaissance pilot:
Hauptmann Herbert 'Mungo' Findiesen with 47 kills (later transferred to JG54 where he added another 25 to his score).

Highest number of kills in one day:
Leutnant Emil 'Bully' Lang with 18 kills over Kiev on 3rd of November 1943 (total score of 173, 29 of which were western fighters and a single bomber it appears).

Craziest killrate in aireal combat:
Major Erich Rudorffer with 13 (some sources say 14) kills in 17 minutes (final score was 222 or 224 again sources differ).

Highest number of passenger in a Fw190:
5 plus pilot, two behind the pilot, one in the fuselage and one each in the wing ammunition bays (supposedly the onlookers' faces was something to have watched when the passengers clambered out).

Funniest award to a pilot:
In a fit of good humour the commanding officers of Major Erich Rudorffer awarded him with paratrooper wings for his 9 parachute escapes from his plane (was shot down 16 times in total).

That fighter-bombers and recon pilots could amass such high scores says something about the situation the Germans faced in the east. And for a pilot to be able to get confirmed kills at least one other person had to attribute the kill to him, often this was his Katchmarek (wingman), but it happened that it was a groundunit such as an AA crew that confirmed the kill, so I suppose those 17 kills of Marseille remained unconfirmed kills an didn't count towards his total score of 158.

[English assassin]

I'm not too sure what the point of all this is, but a question applicable to both sides: are all these numbers verified from post war records of the other side? We all know the Luftwaffe destroyed the entire RAF about 6 times in the Battle of Britain...

[Kraxis]

The Russians didn't really keep as much in terms of books, and would genrally deny any significantly lopsided losses, but their general losses conform with these scores. Of course you can take some and pull them to one side or another.

Luftwaffe did claim to kill more planes than they did in BoB, but that was the higher up commanders that tried to suck up to Hitler and Göring. In general the pilots' direct claims were much closerto the admitted losses, which btw were hardly truthful either. The Allies weren't exactly the voice of truth either. I mean the B-24 bombers were supposedly directly responsible for 6500 fighterkills, and the B-17 a similar number. And the fighter/bombers wiped out the German tankforces on a daily basis (look up the numbers for Mortain alone).

That the Germans had similar rules as the Allies as towards aireal kills and claiming them we should offer them the same trust. I mean we have even accepted Russian claims eventhough we know that they were perhaps the least trustworthy in this regard.

[Mount Suribachi]

Both sides inflated their figures, either by accident or design. A common tactic was for 2 pilots to agree to back up each others claim for a kill.

I can't remember if I mentioned it in this thread, or another, but Hans-Joachim Marseille, who claimed 17 RAF kills in one day over the desert. RAF records show that they didn't lose a single plane that day.......

EA, to answer your question, so (comparitively) rare were the shootings down of Luftwaffe planes in 44-45 that historians can go through the records and not only verify RAF/USAAF kills, but actually name with some certainty the crews shot down.

[Kraxis]

Well, if a pilot was to lie for a buddy, then he should be getting something out it. German tactics demanded that the wingman ALWAYS stayed on the wing of the leader. This meant that the wingman didn't get as much attention and certainly not as many kills.

For instance Walter Nowotny's primary wingman, Karl 'Quax' Schnörrer 'only' got 35 confirmed kills despite being on Nowotny's wing until 12th of October 1943 when Nowotny had reached past 250 kills. It was Quax who took the dangers and he didn't get any of the glory, just like all the other unknown wingmen for the super-aces, why would they begin to inflate their primary's score as crazily like that mention in the case of Marseille? They had little motive. The primary should at least back up a serious number of kills for his wingman, but in general that wasn't what happened.
Now I assume that Marseille was out alone on that mission, and thus the score has since remained 'claimed' and not 'confirmed'.
None of the numbers I have presented have included damaged or unconfirmed/claimed kills.
Besides, if it was so common, one wonder why there weren't more of the super-aces that got past 300 kills, or in fact rivaled Hartmann. As we all known most pilots have a huge ego, being the best is important to them. The German called that 'the Throat-ache', as a comment towards getting the various versions of the Knight's Cross.

I do not discount false claims, in fact I believe upwards of 10% might have been false or mistaken, several pilots often claimed the same heavy bomber for instance, just like the bombers' gunners often claimed the same fighter on several planes (which could lead to insanely inflated killrates, most notorious case somewhere around 160 claims, 1 actual). But actual intentional faking kills for each other in the hundreds is rather far out, also because there were often others besides the two planes involved. Having more than one in on 'MAKING an ace' is downright crazy.

Besides, it wasn't unknown that the Allies made mistakes in their book-keeping. For instance in the period of early 4-engine bomber attacks on Germany, the Germans had physical evidence on their hands for their kills (such big planes made a big splash), yet Allied records show significantly fewer losses (one has to assume this continued later but then numbers were too great for the Germans to keep up with). So either the Allied pilots went up without orders (when the losses were high I doubt they would sneak out like that), and thus messed up the records or quite simply the records aren't as realiable as we want them to be.

[Mount Suribachi]

Don't get me wrong Kraxis, I'm saying inflated figures happened on all sides (for a variety of reasons).

The thing about pilots agreeing to support each others claims actually came from a quote I read from prominent USAAF ace.

I'm just very touchy about the whole Luftwaffe uber-ace thing, mainly due to certain people claiming that German pilots were somehow inherently (racially) superior fighter pilots. Clearly they had much better tactics & training in the early war years, I wouldn't dispute that. I think it was Hub Zemke who when asked what made a good fighter pilot said "training, training, training, training, good eyesight and training".

[Warluster]

[QUOTE=Homo Sapiens]The only attack on an mainland American military installation during World War II occured on the night of June 21-22, 1942. A Japanese submarine surfaced in the Columbia River in Oregon and fired shells at Fort Steven. The only damage reported was to a baseball field's backstop.

What about Pearl harbour?