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  1. #1
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Talking Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    It's so true, only one end of the political spectrum uses emotional arguments. I've never seen a right wing person descend to that level. And when Malin describes progressives as "cockroaches," or Coulter says that the best way to talk to liberals is with a baseball bat, or when Limbaugh states that "what's good for al-Qaeda is good for the Democratic Party," or when Robertson and Falwell blamed the ACLU and the People for the American Way for the 9/11 attacks, well, that's not emotional.

    That's just truthiness.

    Pindar, do you see any reason to allow leftists to live?

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Pindar, do you see any reason to allow leftists to live?
    Yes. Emotionalism and/or incoherence is no reason for a death sentence. The hyperbole of the question does illustrate the point in some fashion however.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Well, lawyer, if over-the-top humor counts as yet another confirmation of your thesis, let's tackle this from another angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar the Anti-Gah
    And because there is a great deal of personal psychological investment in progressivism, they react intemperately to rejections of it. It's not merely a tax cut that's being debated; it's they're very sense of importance that's being attacked. It's not merely gay marriage which is being argued against; it's their value as human beings that is being uncouthly denigrated.
    Again, you write this as though only people on the left end of the political spectrum have an emotional investment in their ideology. Where's your evidence for this? I know leftists can be blind, screaming idealogues, but so can right-wingers.

    The perspective you put forth applies equally well to any idealogue of any party anywhere. How you construe this to apply to only one group is puzzling.

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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Uhm, if the original arguement threw out Al Franken and Micheal Moore as examples, than maybe the Limbaugh and Coulter counters would be appropriate. I don't think it was aimed at the cable tv-cheerleader riff-raff.

  5. #5
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Nevertheless, my question still stands. What evidence exists that leftists have a greater emotional and personal investment in their ideology? As I posted in an earlier thread, there was a lovely experiment that showed partisans, both left and right, use the emotional part of their brain rather than the rational part when confronted with questions that were unfavorable to their chosen candidates. No report that either group reacted more emotionally.

    The original post strikes me as a gussied-up flame, imputing a negative human characteristic to a group with whose politics the poster does not agree, and without a shred of evidence to back it up.

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    No time for an intelligent response. Good thread Pindar!


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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    As to another point made in this flame-ready thread, the post regarding how staunch leftists are unyielding and illogical in their pursuit of orthodoxy, again, this is a characteristic of many political movements. Example:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Wing and a prayer: religious right got Bush elected - now they are fighting each other

    Campaigners who fail to keep the hardline faith face threats and intimidation

    Stephen Bates, religious affairs correspondent
    Wednesday May 31, 2006

    In his consulting room in a suburb of Montgomery, Alabama, gastrologist Randy Brinson is a worried man. A staunch Republican and devout Baptist, Dr Brinson can claim substantial credit for getting George Bush re-elected in 2004. It was his Redeem the Vote initiative that may have persuaded up to 25 million people to turn out for President Bush. Yet his wife is receiving threats from anonymous conservative activists warning her husband to stay away from politics.

    "They've been calling my house, threatening my wife," said Dr Brinson. "The first time was on a day when I was going up to Washington to speak to Republicans in Congress. Only they knew I'd be away from home. The Republicans were advised not to turn up to listen to me, so only three did so."

    The reason he has fallen foul of men whose candidate he helped re-elect is that he has dared to question the partisan tactics of the religious right. "Conservatives speak in tones that they have got power and they can do what they want. Only 23% of the population embraces those positions but if someone questions their mandate or wants to articulate a different case, for the moderate right, they are totally ridiculed."

    In his office in Washington DC, Rich Cizik, vice-president of the National Association of Evangelicals, the largest such umbrella group in the US, is also feeling battered. His mistake has been to become interested in the environment, and he has been told that is not on the religious right's agenda.

    Mr Cizik, an ordained minister of the Evangelical Presbyterian church and otherwise impeccably conservative on social issues such as abortion, stem-cell research and homosexuality, believes concern for the environment arises from Biblical injunctions about the stewardship of the Earth. The movement's political leadership, however, sees the issue as a distraction from its main tactical priorities: getting more conservatives on the supreme court, banning gay marriages and overturning Roe v Wade, the 1973 abortion ruling.

    "It is supposed to be counterproductive even to consider this. I guess they do not want to part company with the president. This is nothing more than political assassination. I may lose my job. Twenty-five church leaders asked me not to take a political position on this issue but I am a fighter," he said.

    Another Washington lobbyist on the religious right told the Guardian: "Rich is just being stupid on this issue. There may be a debate to be had but ... people can only sustain so many moral movements in their lifetime. Is God really going to let the Earth burn up?"

    Such partisan tactics are perhaps to be expected in a divisive political climate, with both sides excoriating each other in moralistic terms in a way that has not been seen in Europe for many years - and which is increasingly incomprehensible to many Europeans.

    To Judge Roy Moore, who was unseated as chief justice of the Alabama supreme court in 2003 for refusing to remove a five-tonne granite monument on which were carved the Ten Commandments from the court's foyer, that just shows how far Europe has slid.

    Judge Moore, campaigning in the state's primaries to supplant the incumbent Republican governor, during a visit to address a women's club in the town of Enterprise, told the Guardian America was falling into Godlessness, too: "That's it, we're going the same way England is now, without God. Is it true that Islam is taking over there?" he asked.

    This is a common idea in rightwing circles and, if some of the arguments sound overheated - a recent radio discussion in Virginia on stem-cell research took it as read that only Christians were capable of moral decisions - the religious right has reason to fear that its reach is declining.

    "I would rather put my .38 pistol in a child's room than put a computer or a television set there. The devil's crowd is working how to get to your children," declared Brother Richard Emmett in his Mothering Sunday sermon, broadcast to audiences in eastern Tennessee. There is a sense that some of the evangelists - using the medium that Brother Emmett reviles so much - may have overreached themselves. Jerry Falwell, founder of the Moral Majority, and Pat Robertson have embarrassed their followers by antics such as blaming the terrorist attacks of September 11 2001 on "the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make an alternative lifestyle ... to secularise America".

    More influential than either is James Dobson of Focus on the Family, who broadcasts daily to the nation from the organisation's Colorado Springs headquarters. Focus on the Family refused to speak to the Guardian, saying "we have no interest in assisting your research", but Washington journalist Dan Gilgoff says Mr Dobson has moved towards an increasingly partisan stance. Mr Dobson endorsed Mr Bush in 2004 but also unsuccessfully rallied the faithful in defence of Judge Moore's monument and threw his weight behind Harriet Miers' disastrous candidacy for the supreme court last year. Nevertheless, Mr Gilgoff says, "people are scared of crossing him". Mr Dobson is one of those warning Mr Cizik off environmental issues.

    But these are ageing leaders, with no comparable successors in sight. And, after years of campaigning against abortion and gays, they have not succeeded in getting their way on either issue. There have been victories, but the president's pledge of a constitutional amendment defining marriage as a heterosexual partnership has not happened.

    That does not mean religion is going away as a lobbying force. Dr Brinson has started advising the Democrats on how to get more religion into their politics in the hope of winning the constituency back in the presidential race of 2008. And, if religious broadcasting grates, as one woman in Tennessee told me: "I just turn up the rock music on the radio."

  8. #8
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Again, you write this as though only people on the left end of the political spectrum have an emotional investment in their ideology.
    Lol, Lemur, don't you see what just happened? He took something ironic you said to make a joke, instead of replying to the actual point you put forth. Now you ask again. What would happen if you hadn't said " Pindar, do you see any reason to allow leftists to live?"? What would he say?

    I think it's quite obvious that he has a bias, remember his pro-Bush thread. Pro-Bush!?! What do you expect?
    It's still interesting that he put forth this topic, because it reflects what I think of him, someone apears intelligent superficially, but yet believes what he does.

  9. #9
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Byz, I don't think there's any reason to question Pindar's intelligence. There are plenty of smart people with whom I disagree.

    What irks me about his original post is that (a) it imputes a universal human negative exclusively to people with whom he disagrees, and (b) in a very lawyerly fashion he distances himself from his unpleasant and ungenerous message by using quotes from others' posts.

    [edit]

    The whole thrust of his post is "Aren't people who think differently from me and mine a bunch of incoherent, emotional smacktards?" I mean, really. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this thread winds up as locked as his last one. Which will, doubtless, confirm his thesis that his opponents are all immature, illogical and generally witless.

    Last edited by Lemur; 06-01-2006 at 22:55.

  10. #10
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Isn't that always the result of stuck on emotional idealogue postions end up anyway?

    Which is what the last two sentences of the initial post states

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder's post
    It's all well and good to discuss a purely theoretical issue. But when you have a strong emotional investment in it -- when you have skin in the game, as it were -- it becomes not an academic debate but a heated argument."
    And yes their are pundits on the right that have just as much of a problem, but with the diversity of left leaning political sprectrums there on the surface does seem to be a higher degree of it coming from the left versus the right.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  11. #11
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Ok i replaced certain keywords of this statement and can someone on the "right" deny this statement?


    This then lead to the below statement by a blogger which I thought some might find interesting:


    "Conservatism is not merely simple politics for most of these people. Their politics to them are a core part of their identity, and, more importantly, a central support propping up their egos. They are enlightened because they believe these things; someone who does not believe these things, and yet who, superficially at least, appears to be about as smart as they might be, represents a threat to their egos. The foundation upon which a crucial structure of their sense of self-worth is undermined if they discover that there may be people who can pass as normal and intelligent and yet do not believe as they do.

    If one is smart, then one believes in conservatism.

    If one believes in conservatism, then one is smart.

    Those are the two assumptions that prop up their sense of self worth, and they are refuted by examples of smart people who don't believe in conservatism.

    And because there is a great deal of personal psychological investment in conservatism, they react intemperately to rejections of it. It's not merely a tax cut that's being debated; it's they're very sense of importance that's being attacked. It's not merely gay marriage which is being argued against; it's their value as human beings that is being uncouthly denigrated.

    This tends to make the right more emotional and, well, angry when debating issues. It's all well and good to discuss a purely theoretical issue. But when you have a strong emotional investment in it -- when you have skin in the game, as it were -- it becomes not an academic debate but a heated argument."
    When one looks at a coin.There are two sides that look different.But are still same material and act in same purpose.
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  12. #12
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Again, you write this as though only people on the left end of the political spectrum have an emotional investment in their ideology. Where's your evidence for this?
    I did not make this claim. The idea is the identity politics of the Left and the emotional investment it typically entails.


    The whole thrust of his post is "Aren't people who think differently from me and mine a bunch of incoherent, emotional smacktards?" I mean, really.
    Actually, it's not. The interest of the post is the rhetorical posture it describes.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

  13. #13
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: A perspective on the Left and identity politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    The interest of the post is the rhetorical posture it describes.
    And you just happened to pick an example that depicts people whose politics are contrary to yours as the unfortunates in this "rhetorical posture"? I believe you; millions wouldn't.

    [edit]

    I'm going to be AFK for several days, but in the meantime, I would appreciate hearing a coherent argument from Pindar. If your thesis is that leftists with "identity politics" are more prone to having an emotional investment than any other group on earth in their ideology, please provide some evidence. Here is a link to a write-up of the brain study I mentioned earlier. Surely if Democrats were more inherently emotional, or rendered so by their beliefs, a measurable discrepancy would have showed up in the brain scans.

    If you have access to tangible evidence which refutes the study, I eagerly await your reply.
    Last edited by Lemur; 06-02-2006 at 03:09.

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