Chavez and the Jackal

[Vladimir]

I thought it would be a good idea to inform JAG and everyone who supports the populist leader of Venezuela, who one if his greatest admirers is. It's none other than Carlos the Jackal.

A couple of other interesting facts from the Bernie [Carlos] the Jackal file.

He has become a radical Muslim. He now declares that he is an ardent supporter of Osama Bin Laden. He praised the New York Trade Towers attack on 9/11 and called it a “lofty feat of arms.”

He is also a fan of Hugo Chavez, Cindy Sheehan’s buddy who runs Venezuela.

In fact Chavez and The Jackal are pen pals. They write back and forth.

In one letter, printed in Harper’s, Hugo Chavez said this to his boy Bernie the Jackal:

“Time delivers miracles only to those who maintain a righteous spirit, to those who understand the true meaning of things.”

Sooo 1960’s. Does that have that revolutionary sound? I mean is that Bobbie Seale writing to Huey Newton and the Black Panthers?

Hugo Chavez president of Venezuela, who recently called President George Bush the most evil man in the world refers to Bernie the Jackal as “my distinguished compatriot.” Go figure.

Edit: damn grammar.

[Avicenna]

You happen to be named after one of his brothers

Well, Bush has ties to Bin Laden and his family as well.

[Vladimir]

You happen to be named after one of his brothers

Well my interest is more in ancient history. I actually have very little knowledge of who that particular person was but I know they named a providence/state/thing after him.

[Major Robert Dump]

Yes I was at a diner and I thought I saw Chavez and Richard Gere having lunch but I didn't want to say anything because Bruce Willis was watching me and I think he had a gun.

[Redleg]

Yes I was at a diner and I thought I saw Chavez and Richard Gere having lunch but I didn't want to say anything because Bruce Willis was watching me and I think he had a gun.

Are you sure that it was a gun that you saw poking out of his pants pocket?

[solypsist]

let's just cut right to the extreme, over-the-top comparison and ask: if hitler liked donuts, would donuts suddenly be unacceptable food by association?

the fact that carlos the jackal (who is venezuelan) likes this or that person is irrelevant. unless one wants to start using this character-judgement-by-oblique-association process for everyone: the bush family are great admirers of teh house of saud and the bin laden family. see? totally worthless.

[Vladimir]

let's just cut right to the extreme, over-the-top comparison and ask: if hitler liked donuts, would donuts suddenly be unacceptable food by association?

the fact that carlos the jackal (who is venezuelan) likes this or that person is irrelevant. unless one wants to start using this character-judgement-by-oblique-association process for everyone: the bush family are great admirers of teh house of saud and the bin laden family. see? totally worthless.

In fact Chavez and The Jackal are pen pals. They write back and forth.

Do you even read what's posted?

[stalin]

Do you even read what's posted?

Does anyone?

[Tachikaze]

"Penpals"? Have you read their letters? Could they also be called by the more neutral term, correspondances?

[JAG]

Yeh, this shows me! Damn he has had correspondance with a 'nasty' man. I wonder how many 'nasty' men Bush has had correspondance with? The list is probably endless.

It is quite amazing how desperate the right always is in trying to find at least a tiny, little bit of information to damn the greatest leader in the world at the moment, but how they find it so damn hard.

Chavez will rule via a more democratically elected way than the rulers of both mine and the US' country and will change the face of it and South America for the better, get used to it.

[Tribesman]

Do you even read what's posted?
Yep , FDD is always good for a laugh , thanks for providing others with the link as I don't normally do links . Cheers Vlad its a ripper

Oh sorry , that wasn't your intention was it

[Tachikaze]

Yeh, this shows me! Damn he has had correspondance with a 'nasty' man. I wonder how many 'nasty' men Bush has had correspondance with? The list is probably endless.

It is quite amazing how desperate the right always is in trying to find at least a tiny, little bit of information to damn the greatest leader in the world at the moment, but how they find it so damn hard.

Chavez will rule via a more democratically elected way than the rulers of both mine and the US' country and will change the face of it and South America for the better, get used to it.

Sadly, chances are, he will be undermined by the US. The US government, especially the Republicans, are very good at that.

We may never see the good that could come from Chavez (I say say could because I am still cautious, though optimistic about him). US conservatives don't want people to realize the alternatives and possibilites. They prefer dictators and/or capitalists that they can manipulate.

I think the association with Carlos the Jackal is a valid concern, something to investigate further, but one that should be assessed more carefully, not used to automatically indict.

Like the US government, there are forumers who simply don't want Chavez to succeed in improving Venezuela and inspiring other nations to take a more socialized and egalitarian approach. They want to watch him fail so they can point at him and say, "see, socialism doesn't work!"

[Vladimir]

Socialism does work. Just look at the economies of France and Germany.

[Tribesman]

Socialism does work. Just look at the economies of France and Germany.
Yep you have a point there Vlad , neither of those countries has a public debt anyway near your own , neither has a trade defecit anyway near your own , and neither is so beholden to chinese money to keep afloat .
Now if you want to talk economic competiteveness , then how many of the top 10 countries would you describe as having "socialist" domestic policies
Perhaps you had better not look ,they have high taxes and generous healthcare/welfare payments . You wouldn't want to get your bubble burst would you

[Xiahou]

let's just cut right to the extreme, over-the-top comparison and ask: if hitler liked donuts, would donuts suddenly be unacceptable food by association?

I agree with that sentiment.... however, if donuts called Hitler their "distinguished patriot", that might be a reason no to like them anymore.

[Ser Clegane]

Socialism does work. Just look at the economies of France and Germany.

Wow ... I didn't know we were a "Socialist" country. Thanks so much for enlightening me.
Perhaps you would be willing to define "Socialism" in this context?

[Tribesman]

I agree with that sentiment.... however, if Osama B called Bush his best recruiter would that be a reason for the donuts to not like George anymore ?
edit , thats doughnuts BTW

[Csargo]

let's just cut right to the extreme, over-the-top comparison and ask: if hitler liked donuts, would donuts suddenly be unacceptable food by association?

Yes, but I eat them anyways

[Crazed Rabbit]

Chavez will rule via a more democratically elected way than the rulers of both mine and the US' country and will change the face of it and South America for the better, get used to it.

So oppression of freedoms and heavily subsidizing gasoline use (and you seem to think not taxing gas enough is terrible) is good? Or is it okay because he's Chavez?

It is quite amazing how desperate the right always is in trying to find at least a tiny, little bit of information to damn the greatest leader in the world at the moment, but how they find it so damn hard.

Lol. What is really funny is how you refuse to criticize Chavez in the slightist, or concede that he could be doing one tiny thing wrong.

And don't worry; I don't strain myself at all finding out why Chavez is bad. He changes laws to gain more power, outlaws politic protest, oppresses the people...etc. It's like he's the reality of what weenie leftists say Bush is, but you support him becuase he gives some money to the poor.

Like the US government, there are forumers who simply don't want Chavez to succeed in improving Venezuela and inspiring other nations to take a more socialized and egalitarian approach. They want to watch him fail so they can point at him and say, "see, socialism doesn't work!"

I know socialism doesn't work. Look at the socialist countries in history. I'll admit a lesser approach, more welfare state, similar to some European countries, can work.
I want him to stop because he's screwing over his people in the long run, and is anti-American. Right now, he's supported by high oil prices. But those won't last forever.

Crazed Rabbit

[JAG]

CR - as ever if you could prove any of which you state, it would be a great thing, maybe then I would consider your posts from time to time. Where are the facts behind what you state? Chavez was unseated for two days due to a coup SUPPORTED by Bush and your government, yet when the people took to the streets and got their democratically elected leader back into office, what did he do to those who unseated him? Murder them? Trial them? Ban them from the country? No, he took no action because he did not want to give people like you a chance to state he is an authoritarian leader. He goes out of his way to be clean and corruptless let alone anti Authoritarian, how many elections has he ledgitimately won now? Do you even know?!

Sigh.

And he does not merely 'give money to the poor' he has significantly improved, and continues to do so, the lives of the vast majority of people in his nation. Just because they are not white and rich, but non white and poor, doesn't mean they are not deserving, which is often the tone of thought which comes from people like you.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And he does not merely 'give money to the poor' he has significantly improved, and continues to do so, the lives of the vast majority of people in his nation. Just because they are not white and rich, but non white and poor, doesn't mean they are not deserving, which is often the tone of thought which comes from people like you.

Its pretty clear that his medical clinics and libraries in the poorest areas represent an improvement for the near-destitute among Venezuela's population. Right now, these programs are being sustained with petro-dollars and Chavez' socialist stance has caused a capital flight among foreign investors. Will Chavez' be able to sustain his dream with an increasing government payroll centered on one nationalized product? Long-term economic stability may be in question.

Why does he attack the biggest market for his country's prime revenue source? A few smug goads like the low-cost heating oil for the poor thing are mostly harmless and win a few brownie points, but he could tone down the rhetoric a notch or three and reap billions more for his reform programs -- assuming that these programs are his primary goal. Por que no?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Chavez is a pretty good reason for the US to get off of oil. Not as good a reason as, say, Saudi Arabia, but still a good one.

[Crazed Rabbit]

CR - as ever if you could prove any of which you state, it would be a great thing, maybe then I would consider your posts from time to time. Where are the facts behind what you state?

Oh please JAG. He HAS changed the laws to get more power, he HAS passed laws against free speech and dissent. We both know it. Denial doesn't work forever. Though I suspect you'll continue trying a bit. Or is the world and all the news agencies just part of one big anti-Chavez conspiracy, and that no fact that in any way fails to show how glorious Chavez is to be trusted?

Oh, and his treatment of the opposition? I wouldn't wager on it being too friendly.
But go ahead, keep sputtering about Chavez being the 'greatest leader in the world'. I'll admit, he's certainly good at getting starry-eyed socialists to swoon over him. Of course, given the lack of socialist leaders who aren't apallingly blatantly dicatorial (N. Korea), and the swooniness of today's starry-eyed socialists, that isn't too hard.

And he does not merely 'give money to the poor' he has significantly improved, and continues to do so, the lives of the vast majority of people in his nation. Just because they are not white and rich, but non white and poor, doesn't mean they are not deserving, which is often the tone of thought which comes from people like you.

Ah, the obligatory 'racist' accusation. After all, why bother having an argument when its so much easier to just put the brain on autopilot and lob out accusations?

Yes, he probably has bettered the lives of some people-only after driving out foreign business and making his country dependent on high oil prices. "Significantly improved a vast majority' is a joke; poverty remains at the same level, if not more.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

Nice articles Rabbit , who would have thought that the source of the articles was funded by Exxon Mobil eh

Or is the world and all the news agencies just part of one big anti-Chavez conspiracy
Well , Jag ould be right if he said that the majority of Venezuelan news agencies were part of a big anti-Chavez conspiracy wouldn't he Rabbit , due to the fact that the media owners were involved in the coup in a very BIG way .

[Major Robert Dump]

Are you sure that it was a gun that you saw poking out of his pants pocket?

My statement was kind of amibiguous, so I don't know who you think might be pointing something other than a gun at me, but Richard Gere does carry around a lot of bratwurst (to feed his ferrets) so maybe it wasn't a gun.

[Tachikaze]

He HAS changed the laws to get more power

So did FDR in the 1930s. Actually, he circumvented them. Venezuela has been in crisis, like the US was in 1933, and needs a strong, decisive government to take quick action. You can't judge a government by what it does in the short term. If Venezuela ever gets stable and the goverment never becomes more moderate, then be concerned. But that stability could be decades away, even if handled expertly.

But you could never make the changes needed with an inefficient government like Japan's. Due to the concensus nature of their decision making, that nation's political structure is very democratic, but moves like a snail on Valium.

[Crazed Rabbit]

An interesting point, Tachikaze.
I would say, however, that his use of enhanced powers, and the time span, six years and counting, give me reason to lean towards the view that he is not simply doing this for the good of the state. To me, it does not seem that Venezuela is so unstable that this is necessary.
His laws against dissent, trying to muzzle the media, stack the courts, etc., point towards someone who is not just using a bit more executive power to keep the nation together, but also to cement his control over it.

Nice articles Rabbit , who would have thought that the source of the articles was funded by Exxon Mobil eh

Really? Do tell.

Well , Jag ould be right if he said that the majority of Venezuelan news agencies were part of a big anti-Chavez conspiracy wouldn't he Rabbit , due to the fact that the media owners were involved in the coup in a very BIG way .

Hmm, did I say that the Venezuelan media wasn't anti-Chavez? Do try and not make wild conjunctures.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

Really? Do tell.
Find out for yourself rabbit , it doesn't take much effort to type the authors name into a search engine does it , just like it doesn't take much effort to find out who finances the non-profit organisation he works for .

[Crazed Rabbit]

Find out for yourself rabbit , it doesn't take much effort to type the authors name into a search engine does it

More effort than you are willing, or able, to exert, apparently.

Explain how the fact that Exxon Mobile gave 0.5 percent of ALF's funding to ALF since 1998 effects the author's veracity, when the author is a peon in the ALF, and what this has to do with the facts presented?

Don't bother yourself answering (as you can't even be bothered to post links); I know you're just trolling around, with no thought or mind for actual debate.

Crazed Rabbit

[Idaho]

He changes laws to gain more power, outlaws politic protest, oppresses the people...etc. the (rich).

Keep on topic. We're talking about Chavez not Bush