New E3 video (handcam)

[econ21]

[1] RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for disorganised formations
[2] RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for placing units on top of eachother
[3] RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for units that are flanked or surrounded
[4] RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for loose formation
[5] RTW doesnt have a combat bonus for wedge formation

AFAIK, we did lose [2] moving from MTW to RTW but I think you are being a little misleading on the other points.

Re [1] There is no "disorganised" state per se in TW. But
(a) a strung out formation - eg one pursuing a routing enemy - will tend to do worse than an ordered one, because its men will get into combat piecemeal with a more concentrated opponent
(b) a stationary braced formation can cope with a cavalry charge better than a "disorganised" one.
(3) disorganisation severely hampers phalanxes
(4) the "hold formation" button captures some aspects of being in proper formation - your defence is higher, but your attack is reduced

Re [3] This is wrong because:
(a) the morale penalties to being flanked etc are very severe
(b) individual soldiers have facing and cutting at one's flank or back does increase kill chances (and stops your target striking back until they turn about)

Re [4] Does there need to be a "penalty"? In loose formation, you will get fewer men into contact with an enemy and hence kill less (be killed more) in melee.

Re [5] Are you sure of this? In STW and MTW, wedge raised attack and lowered defence. I would assume it's the same in RTW.

[Duke John]

What RTW are you talking about?

Which Adherbal are you talking about? Adherbal not having played RTW, that is a good one.

[x-dANGEr]

AFAIK, we did lose [2] moving from MTW to RTW but I think you are being a little misleading on the other points.

Re [1] There is no "disorganised" state per se in TW. But
(a) a strung out formation - eg one pursuing a routing enemy - will tend to do worse than an ordered one, because its men will get into combat piecemeal with a more concentrated opponent
(b) a stationary braced formation can cope with a cavalry charge better than a "disorganised" one.
(3) disorganisation severely hampers phalanxes
(4) the "hold formation" button captures some aspects of being in proper formation - your defence is higher, but your attack is reduced

Re [3] This is wrong because:
(a) the morale penalties to being flanked etc are very severe
(b) individual soldiers have facing and cutting at one's flank or back does increase kill chances (and stops your target striking back until they turn about)

Re [4] Does there need to be a "penalty"? In loose formation, you will get fewer men into contact with an enemy and hence kill less (be killed more) in melee.

Re [5] Are you sure of this? In STW and MTW, wedge raised attack and lowered defence. I would assume it's the same in RTW.

Ogh, I forgot to reply to his first note, but anyway, you seem to have covered it.
Also:

RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for disorganised formations

First, you will lose control of your units, try this:
Go ERE and your friend ERE rebels, you get 10 plumbs and he gets 5 clibs. Now you turn fire at will off, and let his clibs walk through your infantry, look how missed will your infantry be, try to organise them then..

Second, you will be to easy to crush. After doing what I said above, let your friend charge your army with 5 Equite CATAS after it has been dis-organised. All he needs to do is retreat and charge again, till you're done.

[Furious Mental]

At least in alot of screenshots the armies seem to be in formation. I am aware, though, that screenshots can be and often are staged.

[sunsmountain]

Though all of those 5 points ARE actually covered in the game RTW, it doesn't really matter because of the low overall morale: Units will soon start routing regardless, and fighting will not last long enough for simple +3 or -4 or whatever to influence anything.

The longest fighting i have seen is between 2 units of spartan hoplites, and even that was over way too soon to my taste. So what should I do now? Increase the hitpoints of all units? Increase the morale? That means a penalty for all the units that had high morale/hitpoints to begin with...

I don't even mind the marching/charging speeds, it's a game after all. you can define speeds to be what they are, and these are motion captured animations. Make the battlemap larger and you will be glad to cross it faster. It would be nice to have a little more time to maneuver though, so use Pause...

From the looks of it the knights in MTW2 are even faster than the cavalry was in RTW...

[Lord Adherbal]

What RTW are you talking about? Have you ever played RTW?

even tho I have no actual prove that bonuses/penalties don't exist, I've done more then enough tests and stat modding to conclude that even if there are penalties they have virtually no effect.
You speak about morale penalty for being surrounded. That is correct. But an elite unit will hardly care about being surrounded by lesser units, just gives them more opponents to slaughter. Even if they are "wavering" they still kill their opponents at a happy pace as if nothing is wrong.
This also leads to the problems with point 2: lack of a penalty for bunched up units: you can surround them all you like, but if those units are better then yours they'll still slaughter you. One of the reasons why cav spamming is so effective in RTW.

And about disorganised units, even if a shield wall formation is completly messed up with soldiers all over the place they still have their combat bonuses.

[x-dANGEr]

I don't know about their combat bonuses, haven't gone through the engine as you may have.. But I know that they drop like flies when disorganized, and if not, they kill no one.

@Battles lasting long issue: I remember my last MP battle before I travelled, I had my 10 Urbans VS my enemies 10 First cohorts fighting for more than 50 minutes.. (The game was on the largest size..). Why? Because no flanking/strategical things happened during the game, because it was a siege and in sieges it is so hard to do such things.

[econ21]

Some of the modifiers may be unimportant (I and most posters I've read have no time for the wedge formation, for example) but flanking is utterly devastating in RTW as in other TW games. I am amazed that anyone could suggest otherwise. It is the number one battle winning tactic in the game.

Flanking is particularly important to use against elites. Try fighting Roman infantry in Rome Total Realism Gold or gestatae in EB. Go head to head and you're in for a world of pain. Pin them with spears, charge cavalry into their rear and they can crumble. The morale modifiers are very severe, even when units have sky high morale (as in RTR Gold).

RTW has its problems, but in terms of modifiers and combat mechanics etc, it is pretty impressive, IMO. The problems I perceive on the battlefield are more to do with AI tactics than with the underlying engine. Some simple tweaks could go a long way.