why arent they talking at all about the AI?

[Callahan9119]

the graphics are pretty, they love to point this out....but what about the AI?

6 months till release<rumor> why no talk of the AI?

getting annoyed with them talking up the graphics and animations and nothing about improved AI <which is really what any game is about>

[Boohugh]

Mainly because the mass-market seems to be more interested in games looking great instead of playing great. CA also have the problem of having to balance the game so people new to it or people with very little knowledge of tactics (which I'm betting is the vast majority) won't be completely over-run by the AI. Unfortunately this means the game is less challenging and often more frustrating for the more seasoned players who expect AI improvements in every new iteration of the game.

[Callahan9119]

word

[Lentonius]

I think games producers also implement the AI right at the end, at the minute they are simply making the game work properly and looking snazzy

[De' Medici]

The TW series are strategy games, not some FPS, in order to put the graphics above all. I can wait longer than 6 months, because I want to see a whole new game, not RTW with better graphics and the same poor AI. CA must not rush the release of Medieval 2 only for the marketing strategy. The expectations coming from the TW community are are very big.

[Lord Adherbal]

The expectations coming from the TW community are are very big.

they were also big for RTW, and look what we got - certainly not something the overall TW vet appreciated

From the first things I heard and saw of MTW2 I had a good feeling about the game, but after noticing they didn't even fix those rediculous run speeds I just lost all hope. This will be "RTW: The Middle Ages", not MTW with awesome graphics.

[Lentonius]

Well, we dont know about the speeds of the units, after all, it may just be to cram as much action into a small video clip as possible.

[Gaulgath]

they were also big for RTW, and look what we got - certainly not something the overall TW vet appreciated

From the first things I heard and saw of MTW2 I had a good feeling about the game, but after noticing they didn't even fix those rediculous run speeds I just lost all hope. This will be "RTW: The Middle Ages", not MTW with awesome graphics.

If there is one thing I hate, it's bashers. The game hasn't even come out yet, and everybody is butchering the game! Why don't I sit you down in a chair and watch you program this? TW is MASSIVE, and not every little detail is going to be perfect. I don't understand what is so hard to grasp about that.

[Sabuti]

Mainly because the mass-market seems to be more interested in games looking great instead of playing great. CA also have the problem of having to balance the game so people new to it or people with very little knowledge of tactics (which I'm betting is the vast majority) won't be completely over-run by the AI. Unfortunately this means the game is less challenging and often more frustrating for the more seasoned players who expect AI improvements in every new iteration of the game.

That's what difficulty settings are for. So this is no reason to not improve the AI. Without substantial AI improvements this game is not even worth buying.

[GFX707]

Yes....personally I will probably try a "friend's" copy first to see what the improvements to the AI are like. If it's just more eye-candy like RTW was to MTW, then I will not be buying it.

[Brighdaasa]

a "friend's" copy

Nice euphemism, got to rember that one.

Although that's basically what the demo is for, to see if you like the game.

[Duke John]

Normally yes, but CA heavily scripted the demo and let the AI come so close that there was hardly any time for manouevring left once the battle started. So you cannot really get a good idea of the AI. However if they do that trick again it will be for me a clear sign that they want to hide something. And of course the unitspeed will play a big role on wether I will lend a friend's copy for the first time

[TB666]

6 months till release<rumor> why no talk of the AI?

They have mentioned the AI quite a few times.
Read the previews.
Also they have stated that the game is pretty much complete and all that is left is the AI which is what they are doing now.

[SpencerH]

I'm one of those people who believe that it's virtually impossible to make a tactical AI that will really be challenging. Not that the TW AI couldn't be improved, but that it will never be as challenging (deceptive, cunning, imaginative) as a human. What I find strange about CA is that they dont seem to include large groups of beta testers to pretest game concepts. Maybe thats a misconception on my part but it seems that way to me (and I've helped out on other (non-CA) games. For example, I cant believe many experienced game players were positive about the running/fighting speeds of RTW.

[Furious Mental]

They could at least try.

[NagatsukaShumi]

The reason they aren't talking about the AI is because they very rarely have, infact if you read most previews they won't talk about the AI too often other than the obvious "if fired at with arrows they take cover in woods" for example, this kind of AI discussion is usually presented.

They will not talk to you about fighting and running speeds, this is not something that concerns the mass market but I can pretty much garuntee that CA will have read comments about it all and will be taking it into consideration, they just won't be making press releases about it as it doesn't concern the majority buyer of the TW product nowadays, in a sense TW is a victim of its own sucess in that it has to adapt to survive scrutiny from the casual gamer. If you took away the history experts and TW vets I garuntee there'd still be plenty of sales, we are hardly the largest consumer group here.

[King Ragnar]

Because its gona be poor and not there main selling point, they are looking for people who just love the look of the games and not they gameplay itself im afraid.

[Callahan9119]

They have mentioned the AI quite a few times.
Read the previews.
Also they have stated that the game is pretty much complete and all that is left is the AI which is what they are doing now.

funny...i read through the whole faq and all of the sticky threads on tw.com and previews from major game sites and havent found anything but the usual dopey things like someone said "if you shoot them with arrows they will move to trees"

so from what your saying they are doing a LAST MINUTE job on the AI, if its going to be dropped in 6 months that means they have what? maybe 4 months to work on it? its not like they have some great foundation to work with.

and i dont see why it would be so hard to make a better ai, how about one that doesnt move around behind walls eating arrows, one that stays in formation, doesnt send generals to a quick death, doesnt send slingers charging into my front lines as shock troops, builds better units for its armies and knows how to tech up its buildings

but who needs AI when you have.....drumroll.....CANNON ELEPHANTS

[Dooz]

How bout we just wait and see how the AI actually works before sticking a criticism pole up it's wazoo. Movement speeds and such aren't a big deal at all as they are very easily changed. There are more important assets of the AI to worry about that can't be changed by modders. Hopefully those more major areas will be improved upon and the minor nitpicks can be modded as always.

[Geoffrey S]

One of those videos shows AI slightly better than in RTW, at least right after deployment. Hopefully with a bunch of months left they'll still be working on the AI solidly.

[Callahan9119]

yes, but mods generally dont help much in the mp department...and most of the ai problems have long and dusty roots, as far back as STW...thats why i'm annoyed....all the power of todays systems and the AI has not developed

i'm not bashing...i have bought EVERY TW product thats been released and <except for stw> the day it is released....and i'll buy mtw2...but that doesnt change the fact i am concerned about its development.



to the guy below me, he mentioned MODDING the game speed....and the RTW run speed IS a problem for MP and its hard to get everyone to use the same mod...or in some instances even the same patch

[SpencerH]

Movement speeds and such aren't a big deal at all as they are very easily changed.

They are not 'easily changed'. They're fixed by the animations (AFAIK). All that can be done is to modify the terrain effect to slow all units proportionally (rather than, for example, preventing the warbands from running for 2 miles at the speed of an olympic sprinter).

[Callahan9119]

They are not 'easily changed'. They're fixed by the animations (AFAIK). All that can be done is to modify the terrain effect to slow all units proportionally (rather than, for example, preventing the warbands from running for 2 miles at the speed of an olympic sprinter).

yes you can only modify the animations, like you said by changing the terrain values, and if its like rtw it would be easy enough but would probably make the treadmill effect even more noticable due to the improved graphics and animations<if its done the same way>...like i said before its hard to import this to the MP arena as there is hardly ever agreement over which mod is best

yet, really all i want is the difficulty to translate better, like Wonderland said... the ai acts pretty much the same on all levels....upping the difficulty seems to only pad the AI's stats, let the nubsauce players use the easy difficulty

i just get annoyed that they seem to be disregarding and neglecting the player base that has supported them over the years, we all put up with the GOD-AWFUL multiplyer/gamespy issues...and franky i didnt mind the ctd, unable to connect, games dropping to the lobby mid fight and the horrible performance "TTTTTTTTT"....cuz the game was so damn good when u could actually play, especially cuz of all u classy euros

i dont think RTW was a bad game either...just the mp...i modded the unit animations to slow em down and added morale values to all the units and BAM the game is harder...i dont mind them taking creative liberty with history and the goofy head hurlers and roman ninjas...i kinda like them

[Oaty]

f

and i dont see why it would be so hard to make a better ai, how about one that doesnt move around behind walls eating arrows, one that stays in formation, doesnt send generals to a quick death, doesnt send slingers charging into my front lines as shock troops, builds better units for its armies and knows how to tech up its buildings

That paragraph sums it up where the AI needs the most improvement. To top it off the A.I. can have superior firepower behind thier walls and as soon as you counter-fire, the A.I.'s missile troops will start running around. If they had just stood there returning fire the effect would be devastating.

Anyways all games that I have played always had a loophole somewhere in the A.I. The main concern is to fix the worst of the problems, where the A.I. just sends lambs to the slaughter.

Ptogramming an A.I. to a human level is no way near the future.

[screwtype]

What I'd like to see most is AI armies acting in a co-ordinated manner instead of each unit acting completely independently of the rest. It makes it so easy to beat the AI piecemeal. And there's no sense of a controlling enemy intelligence at all. RTW AI armies basically behaved in a totally random fashion.

All they would really need to do is to program the AI to have half a dozen different battle plans for each of the main situations, ie field attack, field defence, siege attack, siege defence etc., and you would have a game that was entertaining, unpredictable, and challenging. But what are chances we will get something like this?

As far as speculations about M2TW AI, I was initially quite hopeful we were going to see significant improvement in this game. However, the movies we have seen so far are not terribly encouraging. Units still seem to be moving too fast, kill rates still too fast, not much evidence of AI smarts. So I'm beginning to grow cynical again and to think we are going to get RTW with prettier graphics.

However, I'm trying to suspend judgement until I've played the demo.

[Mooks]

However, I'm trying to suspend judgement until I've played the demo.

Most likely the demo will be dumbed down for nooby players.

[Rodion Romanovich]

the graphics are pretty, they love to point this out....but what about the AI?

6 months till release<rumor> why no talk of the AI?

getting annoyed with them talking up the graphics and animations and nothing about improved AI <which is really what any game is about>

It's very difficult to program much of the AI before finishing most of the graphics engine, so it's natural that graphics are presented first. I'd guess they've made most of the AI by now, but it's probably not yet in a finished state. As it's the last thing done before testing and tweaking, it'll probably be finished around 3 months before release or something like that.

[Callahan9119]

It's very difficult to program much of the AI before finishing most of the graphics engine, so it's natural that graphics are presented first. I'd guess they've made most of the AI by now, but it's probably not yet in a finished state. As it's the last thing done before testing and tweaking, it'll probably be finished around 3 months before release or something like that.

good argument...unit stats etc etc must be tested and such, but couldnt ai be developed fairly independently? i just feel like it should be something constantly worked on from concept to actual design...ai has become a major focus point for game designers, look at for example many fps games when stw launched now we have halo...and many other games that have ai miles away from 4 years ago

yet this type of game does not have the market fps have...so i have and will cut them some slack...i have a powerful system i want the best


but you do have a good point regardless

EDIT

and before anybody crucifies me, saying its easier to do ai for a fps: as TW is dealing with thousands of units....its just really 10 as its just a big blob of animations...not that its easy to do this :)

[Rodion Romanovich]

good argument...unit stats etc etc must be tested and such, 1. but couldnt ai be developed fairly independently? i just feel like 2. it should be something constantly worked on from concept to actual design...ai has become a major focus point for game designers, look at for example many fps games when stw launched now we have halo...and many other games that have ai miles away from 4 years ago

yet this type of game does not have the market fps have...so i have and will cut them some slack...i have a powerful system i want the best


but you do have a good point regardless

EDIT

and before anybody crucifies me, saying its easier to do ai for a fps: as TW is dealing with thousands of units....its just really 10 as its just a big blob of animations...not that its easy to do this :)

1. after graphics have been planned and implemented enough it's possible to implement AI. But sometimes when graphics are extended it might affect ai. Probably they could start working on AI after getting the basics of the grahpics engine ready. After all it's necessary to be able to preview how the AI looks in practise to be able to program much of it. But yes, it's possible to do it independently to some extent, but preferable for the developers to do after all graphics are done
2. yes, if the developer has made the same type of game several times, they can learn what dependencies there are between graphics engine and AI, i.e. what organization they need for the data from a fast graphics perspective. Due to the high framerate requirements it's often necessary to adapt data structures to graphics. Therefore if graphics are upgraded a lot, like from RTW to MTW2, there might still be problems figuring out AI before making most graphics features.

[Callahan9119]

ok i see your point, yet i still want to hear SOMETHING regarding AI concerns that have been around since stw....anything they just keep upgrading the graphics...the mori <sp> clan randomly breaking my alliance was no different than when any other stupid rtw faction does it...same with units eating missles etc....all i want is them to throw me a frickin bone