America's taliban future

[English assassin]

Very scary documentary on the TV over here last night about a new university in the states. http://www.channel4.com/culture/micr.../godsarmy.html

As the website said: Patrick Henry College (PHC), [was] set up five years ago in Virginia, near Washington DC. Its mission is to train young fundamentalist Christians to become the next generation of America's cultural and political leaders.

These robonazis were scary stuff. They want your country, Americans. Their views were toxic, but their commitment and energy was remarkable.

Oddly they seemed to think that Jesus was opposed to compensation for injured workers, (niot too sure where in the bible it says that) and they thought that land should not be taxed because "the earth is the lords". The fact they they thought that statement made land tax unbiblical, but land ownership perfectly OK, gives some very small inkling of the intellectual la la land they were living in.

Question: Do they have a chance?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

who knows, im interested by their stance on gun issues, jesus said that those who lived by the sword would die by it, and what is a gun if not a modern sword?

[Rodion Romanovich]

who knows, im interested by their stance on gun issues, jesus said that those who lived by the sword would die by it, and what is a gun if not a modern sword?

the problem is, for someone that is fundamentalist by the definition, that would be a statement that would go against their faith. Fundamentalism by definition is about interpreting each word of a book considered holy in a strict manner, judging everything that could be a methaphore as if it wasn't a methaphore.

However one can always argue what the canonical least methaphorical interpretation of each word is, for instance in a statement such as "in the beginning there was darkness", the word "darkness" could mean either "no light", "lack of insight" or "evilness", just as "beginning" could mean "the beginning of all time", "the beginning of when time was counted", "the beginning of the story that the bible wants to tell" or "the beginning of the existence of a universe which didn't exist before that time".

Denying the methaphores being methaphores is to put the God called "linguistical syntax" above the God mentioned in the bible, which is to break the first commandment: "thou shalt not have any other Gods than me". So fundamentalism is a self-contradictionary belief which makes for quite interesting contradictions when the fundamentalism idea is put into practise. Thus for a fundamentalist a gun is not necessarily a modern sword, while a wound from a gunshot might be a modern wound from a swordsblade. Fundamentalism is just an excuse for abandoning just, equal treatment and judgement of all people's actions, and hide own agendas on the social or political level.

The scary thing is while fundamentalism once has a leadership in someone a bit nuts who wants to control all people, eventually they lose the leadership and become uncontrolled little robots, which is even worse.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

agreed, jesus spoke in metaphors, its what he did! if that is truly what they believe they realy are mad!

[doc_bean]

They're already in...

Not satisfied with meddling in the lives of the relatively small percentage of women who are pregnant, the American Taliban is moving to regulate the lives of all American women.

"New federal guidelines ask all females capable of conceiving a baby to treat themselves—and to be treated by the health care system—as pre-pregnant, regardless of whether they plan to get pregnant anytime soon," reports The Washington Post. "[T]his means all women between first menstrual period and menopause should take folic acid supplements, refrain from smoking, maintain a healthy weight and keep chronic conditions such as asthma and diabetes under control… [I]t's important that women follow this advice throughout their reproductive lives, because about half of pregnancies are unplanned and so much damage can be done to a fetus between conception and the time the pregnancy is confirmed."

Color me paranoid, but ordering American women to regard themselves as "pre-pregnant" because they may harm a fetus they don't know they're carrying opens the door to prosecuting women who harm their fetuses by failing to regard themselves as "pre-pregnant." How long until "women should… refrain from smoking [and] maintain a healthy body weight" becomes "women must…" Does that sound paranoid? Well, so did a war on contraception once.

Oddly enough, Bush's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention don't urge straight men to regard themselves as existing in a perpetual state of "pre-fatherhood." Smoking, obesity, asthma, and diabetes could seriously hamper a man's ability to do the heavy lifting that comes with fatherhood. But Bush's CDC doesn't seem that interested in regulating the behavior of all those fat, smoking pre-fathers out there.

Gee. Isn't. That. Weird.

[solypsist]

i read an article (not available online) on the possibility of islamicism reaching a high surge, in most of the globe, in about twenty years due to several things:
1. relentless waves of immigrants
2. the appeal of the "unequal gender" philosophy to countries whose men have a tradition of "machismo"
3. the decline of western women's rights

according to this article, the last bastion of christianity will end up being in a few latin-american countries.

this might be a little o/t, but i couldn't help thinking of what i wrote above after reading the actions of the "american taliban" here in the states.

[Devastatin Dave]

Very scary documentary on the TV over here last night about a new university in the states. http://www.channel4.com/culture/micr.../godsarmy.html

As the website said: Patrick Henry College (PHC), [was] set up five years ago in Virginia, near Washington DC. Its mission is to train young fundamentalist Christians to become the next generation of America's cultural and political leaders.

These robonazis were scary stuff. They want your country, Americans. Their views were toxic, but their commitment and energy was remarkable.

Oddly they seemed to think that Jesus was opposed to compensation for injured workers, (niot too sure where in the bible it says that) and they thought that land should not be taxed because "the earth is the lords". The fact they they thought that statement made land tax unbiblical, but land ownership perfectly OK, gives some very small inkling of the intellectual la la land they were living in.

Question: Do they have a chance?

Oh brother, what a lame attempt to compare these people to people that lop stone chicks for showing their ankles. Amazing at what level Islam apologists will reach to try to make believe that other religions are as ass backwards as these fundamentalists 6th century nutjobs.

[rory_20_uk]

Their methods are more subtle than chopping off hands for sure.

But to prevent those suffering the affects of asbestos exposure from recompence will cause them to suffer slow, agonising deaths.

Also consider: if there was a institute that was set up for the followers of Fundamentalist Islam to train to be political leaders would they first off even be allowed to do so?

Apparently the division of church and state is not something that is rigorously enforced.

[English assassin]

fundamentalists 6th century nutjobs

Entirely described what these people seemed to be. For them the answer to EVERYTHING was in the bible. There, right there in 21C America, you had what seemed to be a university teaching what seemed to be reasonably intelligent kids (who certainly all wanted to change the nation's culture) that different rock strata were caused by the flood. The whole of science was "oppositional research"

Are they better than the Taliban? If the bible told them to chop your knackers off, they would whip them off without a second though. If you ask me, these "I'll be a cabbage for god" types are like ice cream; they come in different flavours but its all the same stuff.

[scooter_the_shooter]

These guys will never be leaders out side their little compound.


Think about if they got enough bad info on the quacks to slander them in a documentary....think about what the opposition could do in a campaign.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Apparently the division of church and state is not something that is rigorously enforced.

Where'd you get that? Patrick Henry College is a private institution.

Also consider: if there was a institute that was set up for the followers of Fundamentalist Islam to train to be political leaders would they first off even be allowed to do so?

In America - heck yeah. As a private instituion, granted, but there'd be no case against it unless they did something blatantly illegal (and they might get away with that if the ACLU got involved ).

[rory_20_uk]

Again, unlike th Taliban they are not going to be stupid enough to come out and say "Gays should be killed, we're going to ban drinking and drugs [and whatever else]". They win debating competitions - i.e. they're not stupid.

If they're currently to extreme to be the face of politics the other alternative is to be the people behind the scenes who run departments and do collectively alter the way that things are done.

The "expose" is in the UK. What have you heard in the USA?

[Devastatin Dave]

"

Are they better than the Taliban? If the bible told them to chop your knackers off, they would whip them off without a second though.

Well, that hypothetical isn't in play because the Bible doesn't have that in their so your knackers are safe. Has the memory of muslim bombers in London and the attack of September 11th really that far back in your memory to forget that it wasn't some fundamentalist Christian cult that did these atrocities. Your title of your thread is misplaced as well as your outrage. Sorry, I'm less afraid of some raving nut on the street corner preaching about Jesus paying a visit than i am about the silent and peaceful smiling Islamic fundamentalist that has you to thank for your moral relativity and lack of character judgement. In fact, you should worry more about your back yard over there in merry ol' England when you have a major political party that does not allow anyone but white folks (BNP) and they are actually winning elections!!! Maybe the Brits such as yourself should stop trying so hard to make the US to be some Khristian Krusading Kountry and fix your own damn problems. I'm sure you'll reply back to me with some obscure retort much similar to the "chop of your knacker", but I'll get a good chuckle at it much like how I have a good belly laugh at about most of the constant anti American attempts by folks like you that try to make it sound like the US will make reading the Bible a requirement or we'll stop lopping off heads like the folks that so many on the left believe are somehow morally equal to the United States population. YAWN....

[Redleg]

Very scary documentary on the TV over here last night about a new university in the states. http://www.channel4.com/culture/micr.../godsarmy.html

As the website said: Patrick Henry College (PHC), [was] set up five years ago in Virginia, near Washington DC. Its mission is to train young fundamentalist Christians to become the next generation of America's cultural and political leaders.

These robonazis were scary stuff. They want your country, Americans. Their views were toxic, but their commitment and energy was remarkable.

Oddly they seemed to think that Jesus was opposed to compensation for injured workers, (niot too sure where in the bible it says that) and they thought that land should not be taxed because "the earth is the lords". The fact they they thought that statement made land tax unbiblical, but land ownership perfectly OK, gives some very small inkling of the intellectual la la land they were living in.

Question: Do they have a chance?

The information in the website does not paint the gloom and doom picture that you are presenting here.

I am wondering if your slightly over-reacting because of your own belief, or did the documentary paint a more skewed picture by carefully editing information to paint as negative a picture as possible. Since I did not catch the documentry - nor did your link provide a link to the actual documentry its hard for me to reach a conclusion.

I wonder if some realize how many private religious universities and colleges exist in the United States?

Do you also have a problem with these universities and colleges?

I would suggest a simple research into the number of Private colleges that are based upon religious views. I know of three in the state of Texas alone that are viewed as some of the best universities in the nation for liberial arts and some specific areas of expertise.

A little research will show you that SMU - is based upon a christrian doctrine. The nam itself is telling toward that.

http://www.smu.edu/facts/history.asp

Are you also against this school because of its religious background?


A little research seems to be in order. A simple google search provides a lot of information that seems to contradict the attempt at painting a "Taliban" scenerio - but does paint a picture of did the President of the University go to far in limiting the professors freedom to present material for learning to their students.

http://chronicle.com/free/v52/i37/37a01001.htm

But a core group of Patrick Henry professors now question that much-publicized commitment to the liberal arts. Five of its 16 full-time professors, two of whom have been there from the beginning, are leaving after a bitter battle over academic freedom. Their departures have shaken the campus and created doubts about the college's future.

They have also raised questions that cut to the heart of Christian higher education, such as: Can a Christian find truth in the writings of non-Christians? What role should the Bible play in the classroom? Should a Christian college student grapple with the same philosophers and the same issues as any other student? Or are certain ideas too worldly to address?

The controversy has pitted the college's president and founder, Michael P. Farris, against many of its professors. He has challenged their fidelity to a biblical worldview, and they have challenged his commitment to the liberal arts. "When he accuses us of not buying into the vision of the college, we have to scratch our heads," says M. Todd Bates, an assistant professor of rhetoric, who is leaving after this semester. "We came here because of the vision. The question is: What has happened to that vision?"

Or do you only have a problem with the Patrick Henery College because it made a news report?

[English assassin]

Well, that hypothetical isn't in play because the Bible doesn't have that in their so your knackers are safe

Tut tut, back to bible studies for you. Gospel of Mark, chpt Mark 9

43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

I'm not boasting here but my knackers have caused a fair bit of sinnin' in their time. So I wouldn't bet these nutters wouldn't want them chopped off.

But more importantly yeah, I forgot about the BNP. Obviously that invalidates any concern anyone in the UK might have over well funded christian fundamentalists trying to work the corridors of power.

PS I hate America and I love Satan.

@redleg, I have two problems with PHC (and yes, of course I accept I am at the mercy of the documentary makers in what I saw)

(1) They taught the students lies. Rock strata are NOT the result of the great flood. It is a disgrace that something calling itself an institute of higher education teaches lies. That is simply wrong. This "Can a Christian find truth in the writings of non-Christians?" is a wildly stupid question for them to be asking themselves.

(2) It was expressly and explicitly focused on turning out political activists who would seek to work the political system to impose a fundamentalist christian republic on the States. Now, I accept that is less wrong (even if it is more scary), because in a democracy if these guys want to devote their lives to getting elected on a nutty platform you have to let them. (Although personally I regard religion and politics as incompatible, because the one is about compromise for the good of everyone, and the other is about not compromising at all) But if I saw Islamists trying the same stunt in the UK I would be profoundly opposed to it, and notwithstanding DD's difficulty grasping the point, it is precisely for the same reason that this college alarms me. I don't give people extra points depending on what flavour of intolerant nutjob they are.

For the record, colleges that teach normal higher education courses in line with mainstream academic opinions cause me no concern whatsoever, however christian the institution's ethos.

[Tribesman]

Has the memory of muslim bombers in London and the attack of September 11th really that far back in your memory to forget that it wasn't some fundamentalist Christian cult that did these atrocities.
Interesting memory you have there Dave , have you forgotten the terrorist atrocities in America carried out by "Christian" fundamentalists .

[Redleg]

@redleg, I have two problems with PHC (and yes, of course I accept I am at the mercy of the documentary makers in what I saw)

Then that makes me wonder about the title of this thread even more so?

(1) They taught the students lies. Rock strata are NOT the result of the great flood. It is a disgrace that something calling itself an institute of higher education teaches lies. That is simply wrong. This "Can a Christian find truth in the writings of non-Christians?" is a wildly stupid question for them to be asking themselves.

So you disagree with their believes - does that make vehement hate an acceptable recourse when pointing out the wrongness of their teaching.

And why would the question of "Can a christian find truth in writings of non-Christians?" be a stupid question to ask. Should they not study the writings of Mohummand to discover if their is truth in the writings? Should they not study Marx to see if their is truth in his writings?

I think its a valid postion to have - if they are asking it in an open minded way, if they are asking it as a closed minded rethoric question then its not a question at all.

(2) It was expressly and explicitly focused on turning out political activists who would seek to work the political system to impose a fundamentalist christian republic on the States.

I did not see that in their charter.

The Mission of Patrick Henry College is to prepare Christian men and women who will lead our nation and shape our culture with timeless biblical values and fidelity to the spirit of the American founding. Educating students according to a classical liberal arts curriculum, and training them with apprenticeship methodology, the College provides academically excellent baccalaureate level higher education with a biblical world view.


The Vision of Patrick Henry College is to aid in the transformation of American society by training Christian students to serve God and mankind with a passion for righteousness, justice and mercy, through careers of public service and cultural influence.


The Distinctives of Patrick Henry College include practical apprenticeship methodology; a deliberate outreach to home schooled students; financial independence; a general education core based on the classical liberal arts; a dedication to mentoring and discipling Christian students; and a community life that promotes virtue, leadership, and strong, life-long commitments to God, family and society.


The Mission of the Department of Government is to promote practical application of biblical principles and the original intent of the founding documents of the American republic, while preparing students for lives of public service, advocacy and citizen leadership.


The Mission of the Department of Classical Liberal Arts is to provide students with a broad background in classical languages, logic, rhetoric, Biblical studies, history, English composition and literature, philosophy, science, and mathematics. They will encounter a multiplicity of ideas animating the world's great leaders and thinkers of the past in order to see how God has worked in and continues to work in His creation.

Since there are limited students and even more limited professors given the status of the recent walking of some of them - I don't fear a fundmental takeover of the United States by these Christians. It seems they are having trouble finding themselves - not something for me to worry about given tha they are not advocating the violent change to society.

Now, I accept that is less wrong (even if it is more scary), because in a democracy if these guys want to devote their lives to getting elected on a nutty platform you have to let them. (Although personally I regard religion and politics as incompatible, because the one is about compromise for the good of everyone, and the other is about not compromising at all)

Freedom of Speech is indeed a dangerous concept for many to understand and to allow.

But if I saw Islamists trying the same stunt in the UK I would be profoundly opposed to it, and notwithstanding DD's difficulty grasping the point, it is precisely for the same reason that this college alarms me. I don't give people extra points depending on what flavour of intolerant nutjob they are.

If I saw Islamists trying this in the United States without the advocation of violence I would support their right to express their inherient right as citizens of this nation to voice their political opinion. Until they voice the advocation of the violent overthrow of society or the established authority - they have the right to speak their mind and follow the idealogy that suits their individual belief.

For the record, colleges that teach normal higher education courses in line with mainstream academic opinions cause me no concern whatsoever, however christian the institution's ethos.

So the college must follow the mainstream in order to be of no concern. [sarcasm on] Now that is an enlightened postion.[/sarcasm off]


It seems many liberials of old would disagree with you on that particuler point. Once upon a time it was mainstream academic opinion advocated bleeding people to cure them of sickness. Other exambles of mainstream academic thought that has been shown to be wrong by those who think outside of the box is also available for anyone to find.

[Xiahou]

Apparently the division of church and state is not something that is rigorously enforced.

Where'd you get that? Patrick Henry College is a private institution.

I think there's some misunderstanding there. Our freedom of religion is a one-way street. The government is not to interfere in our religions- that doesnt mean that religious people can not influence our government.

I am wondering if your slightly over-reacting because of your own belief, or did the documentary paint a more skewed picture by carefully editing information to paint as negative a picture as possible. Since I did not catch the documentry - nor did your link provide a link to the actual documentry its hard for me to reach a conclusion.

From what I've seen of British documentaries, the bolded selection would be my guess. The few Ive tried to watch seem to be largely composed of ominous music, scary imagery and out of context references.

[Louis VI the Fat]

If the issues are: 'is there a marked increase in the political influence of evangelical Christianity in America, does this worry you, and is there a chance America will move towards a religious semi-theocracy? 'then I would say yes to all of these three.


Sorry, I hate America and I worship Satan.

[rory_20_uk]

Sorry, you're right. I am indeed misinformed. Apologies for my ignorance.

[Devastatin Dave]

Has the memory of muslim bombers in London and the attack of September 11th really that far back in your memory to forget that it wasn't some fundamentalist Christian cult that did these atrocities.
Interesting memory you have there Dave , have you forgotten the terrorist atrocities in America carried out by "Christian" fundamentalists .

Oh, my memory fails, could you please inform me of the "Christian" fundamentalists attack in the US. If you're referring to the OK city bombing then I'm interested on when exactly McVeigh discussed his award he would get from Jesus after the deaths. Maybe some wine that use to be water?So please, explain to me my Canadian terrorist apologists.
BTW, it wasn't a bunch of American "Taliban" Christians that were going to blow up your buildings and cut off your PM's head earlier this weak. Strange how your country has been lobbing on the knobs of the muslim community all these years and they were going to pay you back like this. What a deal!!!

[Redleg]

If the issues are: 'is there a marked increase in the political influence of evangelical Christianity in America, does this worry you, and is there a chance America will move towards a religious semi-theocracy? 'then I would say yes to all of these three.

Can you provide evidence of any the marked increase of political influence - some would say the re-election of President Bush - but the evidence about his policies does not demonstrate an increase of influence of the evangelical Christian beliefs into the government.

Can you provide evidence of any move toward a religious semi-theocracy in the United States? Because frankly I don't see it.

Sorry, I hate America and I worship Satan.

[sarcasm on]That might be the sole problem behind why you see such a negative view... [/sarcasm off]

[Brenus]

“Can you provide evidence of any the marked increase of political influence”:
I am not following closely US internal politic. So, what I will tell now is more impressions than hard facts. To answer this point, yes I have the impression of an increasing influence of the Hard Line Christian in the USA. Isn’t a preparation of law by W. about the gays? Stopping of financing all institutions advocating abortion, giving founds to the so-called “pro-life” (except for people in jail)?
I know that the Fundamentalist Jews and Muslim will agree on these points; however they are not the majority in the US.
So, it gives me the feeling that, yes, the Fundamentalist Christians are influencing the US politic.

[Husar]

Tut tut, back to bible studies for you. Gospel of Mark, chpt Mark 9

Doesn´t say anything about harming someone else...

Besides, I´m more worried about getting killed by a fundamentalist atheist than a fundamentalist christian.

[Tribesman]

Oh, my memory fails, could you please inform me of the "Christian" fundamentalists attack in the US.
Yep , your memory has definately gone . How many would you like to be reminded of ?
If you're referring to the OK city bombing then I'm interested on when exactly McVeigh discussed his award he would get from Jesus after the deaths.
So your memory doesn't stretch as far as the poem McVeigh chose , thats OK maybe you can remember Rudolphs one , they were the same , of course your memory woudn't recall the prequiem overture for the execution of poor righteous timmy would it , as your memory is bad....so bad in fact that you managed to transport a whole island all the way across the Atlantic

[Lemur]

I, for one, welcome our new fundamentalist overlords.

[AntiochusIII]

So, it gives me the feeling that, yes, the Fundamentalist Christians are influencing the US politic.

Well, duh. They have their lobbyist groups too; and we all know lobbyist ******* of all spectrums and colors (rainbows included) rule America. Almost.

Bush is desperate: his popularity is on a massive spiral downward for a while now; methinks he thinks his only chance is to evoke the fervour of the "Religious Right" minority group's loud and extensive media connection in the hopes of conciling them with him, and obscuring a few deteriorating issues. And what better way to do it than to attack the hated gays? If any Tyrant, King, Emperor, Prince, President, Fuhrer, Duce, and those individuals in such positions know anything, they know the existence of an enemy always keep the masses in line and behind him. I personally doubt he hates gays that much anyway.

*note the minority comment. It is of notable importance that I'm not putting forth a claim that the entire conservative spectrum supports this idiocy*

My main concern is an Amendment proposal of such nature: Amendments have always been about Rights--Rights, not Prohibitions--and the only Amendment in history that Prohibits, rather than guarantees, the (Alcohol) Prohibition Amendment, fails miserably and rightly so. And now they're proposing an Amendment intend to Prohibit, again; **** them, I say, fundamentalist arses!

[Red Peasant]

Well, in the 1930s things were car more dangerous when the US had congressional inquiries into the influence and activities of Jews, yet even this was never really a serious challenge to American democracy and they managed to recover without becoming total nazis.

These people are just fringe nutters and I'm sure that they'll all end up dead in some mass cult massacre/suicide. Go FBI! Can't wait for the movie!

[InsaneApache]

If the issues are: 'is there a marked increase in the political influence of evangelical Christianity in America, does this worry you, and is there a chance America will move towards a religious semi-theocracy? 'then I would say yes to all of these three.


Sorry, I hate America and I worship Satan.

I agree to all of this, apart from hating America. Lots of my family live there.

Oh, I too worship Satan.....

[Crazed Rabbit]

PHC students are an isolated group who come from close-knit communities where everyone prays together and shares moral certainties. Most have been educated at home and have had no contact with either the social diversity or the political and intellectual cut and thrust of mainstream schools.

The author is apparently unaware of what really goes on in most American Universities.

As for the school and its students? I don't give them a big chance for affecting much change, more probably a bulwark against increasing secularization. And what's the harm?

The students are highly trained in political debating techniques for which they win national trophies.

That's better than what most lefties indoctrinate their students with; namely shouting insults at whoever disagrees.

I'd be much more worried about a racist elementary school that wants to tear down America in the southwest:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=50459
That uses physical violence to intimidate reporters:
http://www.kabc.com/mcintyre/goout.a...ews_view/32517

Crazed Rabbit