Europe aided the CIA in deporting terror suspects

[Avicenna]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5054426.stm

Discuss

[English assassin]

I know I ought to care about this in principle, but somehow I just don't.

In practice I do care a bit, because if you ask me spooks are grossly overrated, and they are probably just abducting ordinary Joes. But assuming the spooks are competent I just can't make myself care.

I know this is wrong, rule of law and all that, and I must try harder, but....

[Redleg]

We have discussed this issue in the past - and I pointed out the hypocrisy of several European governments concerning this issue. It seems from reading the report that someone else agrees with me.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I doubt anyone disagrees with you on that Redleg. The governments have at the same time criticized and supported the phenomenon. Criticized it in open because it's worthy of criticism, but in secret been to afraid to stand up for their beliefs, and the beliefs of their people.

[Redleg]

I doubt anyone disagrees with you on that Redleg. The governments have at the same time criticized and supported the phenomenon. Criticized it in open because it's worthy of criticism, but in secret been to afraid to stand up for their beliefs, and the beliefs of their people.

I am afraid I believe that the hypocrisy does not come from a secert fear of standing up for what is right.

The hypocrisy comes from the fact that they support the taking of terror suspects because they want to remove them from their nations, and want someone else to do it for them, but they want to hide that fact from the people within their own nation.

[Hurin_Rules]

It's pretty shameless for European nations to criticize the US when they've been cooperating with them. I'm glad they've been called on it, and hope their cooperation with the US program will end.

[scooter_the_shooter]

I think the prisons are fine. I'd bet you all the money in the world every government that is a big player has them, you just don't know about them because they are secret. Or they are to much of a pansy to make their own and always beg the USA for information behind closed doors...

I'd imagine they get lots of useful info from them.

[Avicenna]

And earlier on in the Chinese "concentration camp" topics many people even thought that only China had them.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I am afraid I believe that the hypocrisy does not come from a secert fear of standing up for what is right.

The hypocrisy comes from the fact that they support the taking of terror suspects because they want to remove them from their nations, and want someone else to do it for them, but they want to hide that fact from the people within their own nation.

Well said.

[Devastatin Dave]

Oh my, you mean that the righteous Euros, who constantly remind us of their morally superior and civilized society, which is beyond the realm of thought and concept we barbaric Americans could ever understand are naughty little fascists like every god damn country in the world? No, say it isn't so.
Can't wait to hear the arguments on how this is all the US's fault. This should be interesting. Of course Hurin hasn't disappointed, waiting for the rest of the usual suspects though.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Can't wait to hear the arguments on how this is all the US's fault. This should be interesting. Of course Hurin hasn't disappointed, waiting for the rest of the usual suspects though.

Sorry, they've all been locked up in a secret Syrian gaol.

[rory_20_uk]

If it were the other way around the USA would be berating others for torture as they quietly get on with it. The nuclear issue in Iran is evidence of this: "do as we say, not as we do".

Both the USA and Europe are probably equal in this in terms of blame.

[drone]

It wasn't too long ago when European nations were involved in all sorts of direct actions, assassinating terrorists, midnight raids, blowing up Greenpeace boats , etc. Most Americans were usually horrified by this, with the usual "What about due process?" cries of outrage. Funny how things got all turned around.

I guess I have no point here, just saying.

[rory_20_uk]

And before that America was napalming commies in Greece, rigging elections in Italy...

Politicians seem to suffer from amnaesia in that even what they did yesterday is forgotten and all can be horrified at what some other country does.

And that the UK and USA are two of the bigest producers of weaponry in the world doesn't give us much of the moral highground.

[Mithrandir]

Those governments are pathetic.
I couldn't agree more that they're being hyopcrite.

Nothing can justify the abduction and torture of people, or governments who aid in that.

[Lemur]

The denial is quick in coming.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Secret CIA jail claims rejected

Washington has criticised a Council of Europe report on alleged US secret prisons inside Europe, saying it was full of allegations, but thin on facts.

Poland and Romania rejected the fresh claims that they hosted the prisons, while the UK, named as a CIA stopover, said the report contained nothing new.

The report was prepared by a Swiss senator for the Council of Europe, the continent's human rights watchdog.

It said 14 European states colluded with the CIA on secret flights.

Under the CIA policy of rendition, prisoners are moved to third countries for interrogation. There have been allegations some were tortured.

The US admits to picking up terrorism suspects but denies sending them to nations to face torture.

The report by Swiss Senator Dick Marty follows a seven-month inquiry.

It began in November amid a political outcry over media allegations of the existence of CIA detention centres in eastern Europe.

'Citizens abducted'

Mr Marty examined air traffic logs, satellite images and the accounts of those who said they had been abducted.

He identified a "spider's web" of US rendition flights and landing points around the world.

And although he said the US must bear responsibility for the flights, he concluded that the programme could operate only with "the intentional or grossly negligent collusion of the European partners".

He said that Spain, Turkey, Germany and Cyprus provided "staging posts" for rendition operations, while the UK, Portugal, Ireland and Greece were "stop-off points".

The report also says Italy, Sweden, Macedonia and Bosnia allowed the abduction of residents from their soil.

The most serious charges are levelled at Poland and Romania, where Mr Marty says there is enough evidence to support suspicions that CIA secret prisons were established.

The report triggered a wave of angry denials from the European countries involved, who called the findings speculation not based on facts.

In London, UK Prime Minister Tony Blair said the report "added absolutely nothing new whatever to the information we have".

US State Department spokesman Sean McCormack described the report as "a rehash of the previous efforts," saying that Washington was "disappointed in the tone and the content of it".

Black sites

The BBC's security correspondent, Frank Gardner, says that while the report makes uncomfortable reading for many European countries, the Council of Europe has been hampered by its lack of investigative powers.

The evidence in the report is largely circumstantial, our correspondent says, and proving many of the allegations, such as the existence of so-called "black sites", is beyond the council's powers.

The report is intended to wake up Europe's conscience to get national parliaments to investigate properly, our correspondent concludes.

"Governments have a duty to carry out serious, transparent investigations" of these allegations, Mr Marty said after the publication of the report.

"These states could have established the truth long ago - they did not. They now have an obligation to do so," he added.

Mr Marty's report is due to be adopted by the full parliamentary assembly of the council later this month.

Torture denial

Media allegations on CIA jails broke last November, when the Washington Post newspaper said the intelligence agency had been running facilities in eastern Europe, Afghanistan and Thailand.

It said more than 100 people had been sent to facilities known as "black sites" since they were set up following the 11 September 2001 attacks.

European media reports have since alleged that the CIA has used several European airports for its programme of "extraordinary renditions".

Under the highly secretive process, US intelligence agencies send terror suspects for interrogation by security officials in other countries, where they have no legal protection or rights under American law.

[Brenus]

Spain, Turkey, Germany and Cyprus provided "staging posts" for rendition operations, while the UK, Portugal, Ireland and Greece were "stop-off points", the report says.
It says Italy, Sweden, Macedonia and Bosnia allowed the abduction of residents from their soil.
The most serious charges are levelled at Poland and Romania, where Mr Marty says there is enough evidence to support suspicions that CIA secret prisons were established. “

“The hypocrisy comes from the fact that they support the taking of terror suspects because they want to remove them from their nations, and want someone else to do it for them, but they want to hide that fact from the people within their own nation.”
“It's pretty shameless for European nations to criticize the US when they've been cooperating with them”
“Oh my, you mean that the righteous Euros, who constantly remind us of their morally superior and civilized society, which is beyond the realm of thought and concept we barbaric Americans could ever understand are naughty little fascists like every god damn country in the world?”

You are having a laugh. Have you?
What Hypocrisy from Europe are you speaking about? Don’t some of theses Countries belong to the New Europe? Didn’t some of these Countries sent troops in Iraq? Germany is training the Iraqi Police, if my memory serves me.
Tell me, what choices for Macedonia, Bosnia (which, by the way are NOT in the EU)? I am more surprise by Sweden and Ireland, but not so much by Greece and Turkey, NATO bases…

So title “EUROPE aided” is a little bit overstretch isn’t it? France and Belgium, Austria, major opponents to the war are NOT on the list… THAT will be hypocrisy! But you are blaming faithful US allies here…

“It wasn't too long ago when European nations were involved in all sorts of direct actions, assassinating terrorists, midnight raids, blowing up Greenpeace boats, etc. Most Americans were usually horrified by this, with the usual "What about due process?" cries of outrage. Funny how things got all turned around.”
That is right, and at the same time the US was busy to organise Coup against elected President and Condor Operation, equipping and training so-called freedom fighters in Central America, providing weapons and equipment to the Red Khmers fighting the Vietnamese etc…
“I guess I have no point here, just saying.”

[Redleg]

Spain, Turkey, Germany and Cyprus provided "staging posts" for rendition operations, while the UK, Portugal, Ireland and Greece were "stop-off points", the report says.
It says Italy, Sweden, Macedonia and Bosnia allowed the abduction of residents from their soil.
The most serious charges are levelled at Poland and Romania, where Mr Marty says there is enough evidence to support suspicions that CIA secret prisons were established. “

“The hypocrisy comes from the fact that they support the taking of terror suspects because they want to remove them from their nations, and want someone else to do it for them, but they want to hide that fact from the people within their own nation.”
“It's pretty shameless for European nations to criticize the US when they've been cooperating with them”
“Oh my, you mean that the righteous Euros, who constantly remind us of their morally superior and civilized society, which is beyond the realm of thought and concept we barbaric Americans could ever understand are naughty little fascists like every god damn country in the world?”

You are having a laugh. Have you?
What Hypocrisy from Europe are you speaking about? Don’t some of theses Countries belong to the New Europe? Didn’t some of these Countries sent troops in Iraq? Germany is training the Iraqi Police, if my memory serves me.
Tell me, what choices for Macedonia, Bosnia (which, by the way are NOT in the EU)? I am more surprise by Sweden and Ireland, but not so much by Greece and Turkey, NATO bases…

So title “EUROPE aided” is a little bit overstretch isn’t it? France and Belgium, Austria, major opponents to the war are NOT on the list… THAT will be hypocrisy! But you are blaming faithful US allies here…

“It wasn't too long ago when European nations were involved in all sorts of direct actions, assassinating terrorists, midnight raids, blowing up Greenpeace boats, etc. Most Americans were usually horrified by this, with the usual "What about due process?" cries of outrage. Funny how things got all turned around.”
That is right, and at the same time the US was busy to organise Coup against elected President and Condor Operation, equipping and training so-called freedom fighters in Central America, providing weapons and equipment to the Red Khmers fighting the Vietnamese etc…
“I guess I have no point here, just saying.”

So I take it your defending the hypocrisy of the European community how interesting

[Brenus]

“So I take it your defending the hypocrisy of the European community how interesting”. Not at all, I just strongly opposed that it is a European Politic but a politic of individual member of Europe (geographically speaking). At least 3 on the Countries involved in the process are not in EU.

Red, you know that I think in politic hypocrisy is a needed talent (like in society: If I tell my brother what I really think about how his children education is, I won’t speak to him again).

I just react on your reactions, kind of: ”OOO, bad Euros, hypocrits!!!” when there are absolutely no proofs that the major opponents to the war (except Germany) were involved. Or EU as Community.
And again, the ones involved were the ones which supported US (or Bush, as you choose) in his War…

[Red Peasant]

“So I take it your defending the hypocrisy of the European community how interesting”. Not at all, I just strongly opposed that it is a European Politic but a politic of individual member of Europe (geographically speaking). At least 3 on the Countries involved in the process are not in EU.

Red, you know that I think in politic hypocrisy is a needed talent (like in society: If I tell my brother what I really think about how his children education is, I won’t speak to him again).

I just react on your reactions, kind of: ”OOO, bad Euros, hypocrits!!!” when there are absolutely no proofs that the major opponents to the war (except Germany) were involved. Or EU as Community.
And again, the ones involved were the ones which supported US (or Bush, as you choose) in his War…

I think that Americans can only generalise their bogey-men or demons on a large scale: Commies, Reds, Muslims, aliens, EUROS! It's just too much for them to distinguish between Britain, France, Germany, Bosnia, etc. Heck, that's too many little piddly countries maannn!

[Redleg]

“So I take it your defending the hypocrisy of the European community how interesting”. Not at all, I just strongly opposed that it is a European Politic but a politic of individual member of Europe (geographically speaking). At least 3 on the Countries involved in the process are not in EU.

A geographical generalization is what you are opposed to?

Red, you know that I think in politic hypocrisy is a needed talent (like in society: If I tell my brother what I really think about how his children education is, I won’t speak to him again).

oh but in some like Germany it is indeed an artform alreadly especially in this instance.

I just react on your reactions, kind of: ”OOO, bad Euros, hypocrits!!!” when there are absolutely no proofs that the major opponents to the war (except Germany) were involved. Or EU as Community.
And again, the ones involved were the ones which supported US (or Bush, as you choose) in his War…

A geographical generalization was used because the nations involved are guess what - that's right European......

[Redleg]

I think that Americans can only generalise their bogey-men or demons on a large scale: Commies, Reds, Muslims, aliens, EUROS! It's just too much for them to distinguish between Britain, France, Germany, Bosnia, etc. Heck, that's too many little piddly countries maannn!

How unenlightened - the generalization was based solely upon the number of European countries involved.

Other then the United States what do all the countries mentioned have in common..... Or are you part of they lets defend the hypocrisy.....

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think the prisons are fine. I'd bet you all the money in the world every government that is a big player has them, you just don't know about them because they are secret. Or they are to much of a pansy to make their own and always beg the USA for information behind closed doors...

I'd imagine they get lots of useful info from them.

And earlier on in the Chinese "concentration camp" topics many people even thought that only China had them.

If my country had concentration camps for own citizens and it would leak out, I wouldn't hesitate to kill all government officials who had knowledge about it and had aided in hiding the information, and refused to resign. Most governments should know that there are millions of people in every country who would do the same thing. And eventually the existence of any hidden camp will leak out to the public. Oh, and accusing other countries of having camps is not making it justified for your own country to have concentration camps. Was Hitler's concentration camps allowed because Stalin had the gulag archipelago? Or the gulag archipelago allowed because Hitler had concentration camps? There are plenty of peaceful nations that don't use camps. Only countries that are both too large to overview, and with a rule so distant, centralized or dictatorial with scare tactics such as a very active secret police have a chance of hiding camps from their people - China, Soviet Union, modern Russia, the wartime nazi Germany with occupied enemy areas, USA. Whether all who have the possibility of hiding camps actually have it is another matter, but for countries who have a potential for hiding camps wouldn't hurt to allow constitutional changes that made it more difficult for any regime to hide camps, whatever those constitutional changes should be. But saying that "all nations have it" is just a form of denial of own problems. Like I said it's very difficult for most nations to actually hide such camps, and a leader might consider himself lucky if he isn't executed by a mob if they are discovered.

In this practical example, the CIA camps that were found aren't really concentration camps, not by far, but they aren't exactly following human rights either, and lately it has seemed that the conditions of such camps and similar institutions have gone gradually worse. The combination of bad current situation and a continual worsening is not a thing that gives hope for the future. What's also shocking is the fact that many of the crimes against the human rights declaration could have been avoided without adventuring the security of the nation in any way - there's simply no reason to treat several of the innocents, who have ended up in these places, so harshly. They could have waited with the harsh treatment until guilt was established. And as for extraction of information, a lot of worthless information gets mixed with real information when torture is used. Remember how many in history admitted they were witches when exposed to torture! And good intel mixed with wrong intel is one of the biggest problems a security agency can have - that was the very strategy behind Soviet maskirovka during the cold war, using defectors who weren't real defectors, and similar things. If the torturer is clever (usually not possible to be both clever and for torture at the same time), he asks control questions, which the victim must tell the truth about, or he will be discovered as lying. But if the victim knows which questions the opponents knows the answer of, it's easy to mix correct info there with fake info in other areas. That's what the fake defectors did - they too got control questions, which they answered truthfully, followed by heaps of false information which confused western intelligence immensely.

[Fragony]

God surprise surprise, did anyone ever actually doubt this? Of course they knew about it, planes comming planes leaving, how on earth could such a thing happen without the government knowing? We dutchies aren't mentioned for some reason but they have been here as well.

[rory_20_uk]

American government planes. I'm sure there are loads of ones that do the same thing transporting other people. But either intenligence services knew and actively helped cover things up or there was no active analysis into the planes. One could argue that they're allies, so why should we be counting them, and where they are going?

It sounds that SIS / MI6 were not in a stte of ignorance, however.

[Mithrandir]

We dutchies aren't mentioned for some reason but they have been here as well.

Because you dutchies didn't activly participate, don't have torturechambe...err prisons and didn't have planes land in your country. However, the government was most likely uptodate on this thing.

[Fragony]

Because you dutchies didn't activly participate, don't have torturechambe...err prisons and didn't have planes land in your country. However, the government was most likely uptodate on this thing.

Oh yes there were, several 'unindentified' planes have been spotted at Schiphol and Eindhoven airport. Our airspace is very well guarded, there isn't a moment where you cannot see at least 3 f16 fighterplanes in the air so my government not being involved is questionable at least.

[Geoffrey S]

This is preaching to the converted. I'd be surprised if anyone doubted the hypocrisy of the governments involved. They played a risky game of "blame the US but profit from the acquired information anyway" and got called out on it; not nearly harshly enough at that, I think.

It'd be nice to see something like this affecting the high and mighty moral attitude of many Europeans, but I'd be surprised if it did.

[Mithrandir]

It'd be nice to see something like this affecting the high and mighty moral attitude of many Europeans, but I'd be surprised if it did.

You don't need a high&mighty moral attitude to think badly of torture and abduction, a standard morale will do just fine.

[Geoffrey S]

Agreed, but it seems in Europe too many people ignore the fact that their governments as unscrupulous as they portray themselves, and swallow their placating words effortlessly. No-one really cares if European countries are implicated, but when the US does something bad it's all over the papers.