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Thread: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Well, well, well.
    In my little ole corner of the world, it has been recently revealed that if you are charged with some sort of drug crime, you can pay money (thousands of dollars) into a fund for new police toys and get a reduced charge:
    http://www.bellinghamherald.com/apps...WS09/606100337

    Some examples:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    CASES REVIEWED
    Among the Whatcom County Superior Court cases reviewed by the AP:

    • Aleksandar Stanimirovic, 34, of Vancouver, Wash., was stopped entering the U.S. from British Columbia in a semi trailer on July 28, 2005. Hidden in the truck's ceiling was 146 pounds of marijuana, worth at least $200,000, according to court documents. Prosecutors originally charged him with a class B felony. He agreed to pay $5,000 to the drug fund, and the charge was dropped to a class C felony. He was sentenced to one month on work release, one month of community service and $2,000 in other fines and court fees.

    • Erin E. McKenna of San Francisco was paid $2,500 to drive a Ford pickup to British Columbia and back in June 1998. She knew she was transporting contraband, said her lawyer, Michael Tasker. As she returned to the U.S., border guards found a false gas tank in the truck containing 15 pounds of marijuana and $28,000. She was charged with felony possession with intent to deliver, but after she agreed to make a $9,750 "contribution" to the drug fund, it was reduced to a gross misdemeanor, court records show. She was given a three-month sentence: two months suspended, one month community service.

    • Constance Arlene Powers, 59, of Mount Vernon was stopped at the border with 4 pounds of marijuana in her car on May 22, 2003. She was charged with felony possession but claimed the marijuana belonged to a young relative who had access to her vehicle. For a $2,500 payment to the drug fund, prosecutors reduced the charge to the lesser felony of second-degree malicious mischief, which had no logical connection to her offense, said her lawyer, Thomas Fryer. She pleaded guilty, signing a statement that said she "did knowingly and maliciously cause physical damage to the property of another," and was sentenced to 25 days of community service, a $1,000 fine for violating the Uniform Controlled Substances Act - though that's not what she pleaded to - and $710 in court costs.

    • Cameron James Stewart, 30, of Vancouver, B.C., admitted smuggling for profit after he was arrested at the border in 2003 with 10 pounds of marijuana hidden in a tire - but said he thought he was smuggling Cuban cigars. He agreed to pay $3,000 to the drug fund, and his felony charge of possession with intent to deliver was dropped to misdemeanor possession. He was sentenced to two days, which he had already served.

    • Tami Dale Marshall faced two felony counts - possession with intent to deliver, and possession of more than 40 grams - last year after she was caught at the border with 15 pounds of marijuana. When she agreed to give $3,000 to the drug fund, the first charge was dropped. The sentence: two months of work release and $2,000 in other fines and fees.

    • Shane Cousineau, 36, of Bellingham was charged with four counts of unlawful possession of a firearm, manufacture of marijuana and possession of oxycodone when detectives found guns, three marijuana plants, 32 grams of marijuana and two Percocet pills in his room. Cousineau, who previously had been convicted of one felony and eight misdemeanors, agreed last December to pay $4,000 to the drug fund. All charges were dropped except the felony charge of manufacturing marijuana; he was sentenced to one month on a work crew, one month of community service and $2,000 in other fines and fees.

    • Vance Miguel Tarrida, 26, a Canadian resident, was arrested entering the U.S. at the Lynden border crossing on Jan. 29, 2005. Prosecutors said investigators found 3 pounds of marijuana in his bags and clothing. He agreed to pay $2,500 to the drug fund, and his felony charge of possession with intent to deliver was reduced to the gross misdemeanor of soliciting the delivery of marijuana. He was given a yearlong suspended sentence and fined an additional $1,000.


    The main story (long) :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Drug suspects pay for leniency
    County's 30-year practice under scrutiny


    GENE JOHNSON
    ASSOCIATED PRESS
    advertisement

    Neither Joshua Sutton nor Joseph Hubbard had any criminal history when they bought $15,000 worth of marijuana from an undercover detective in Whatcom County last year. Both were arrested and charged with unlawful possession with intent to deliver, a felony.
    But then their cases diverged dramatically, thanks to a practice that has been routine for nearly three decades in this border county, where federal agents dump reams of drug cases on local officials every year.
    Sutton, who put up most or all of the money for the drug buy, paid $9,040 to a fund administered by the Whatcom County prosecutor. He was allowed to plead guilty to a reduced misdemeanor charge, received a suspended sentence and went on his way. His payment was nearly double the maximum fine for the misdemeanor.
    Hubbard, a construction worker, pleaded guilty as charged and was sentenced to 45 days on a work crew. The felony on his record means he loses the right to vote, and it could affect his ability to land a job for the rest of his life.
    Their cases illustrate the inequality of an unusual system in which defendants with quick access to $2,000 or more can often "buy down" the charges against them, many legal experts say. In some cases reviewed by the AP, people caught with several pounds of marijuana pleaded guilty to reduced misdemeanor charges after paying thousands of dollars to the county's fund. In another, a young man caught with less than 2 ounces pleaded guilty to a felony after he failed to pay.
    "Yikes, it sounds like the sale of indulgences in the old Catholic church," said Janet Ainsworth, a criminal law professor at Seattle University. "If you were to have a continuum between paying a fine and bribery, this is somewhere in between."
    The money, which must be paid up front, is directed to the county's drug enforcement fund. It's disbursed by Prosecutor Dave McEachran with court approval, and is used to buy new equipment for the county's drug task force, to help pay the salaries of certain sheriff's officers, for drug investigations and for drug court. In the past three years, defendants have paid the fund $432,000, McEachran said. McEachran's 10 criminal deputy prosecutors handle about 500 drug cases a year.
    The county keeps all money paid into the drug fund - unlike regular fines, which must be split with the state.
    Steven Mura, the presiding judge of Whatcom County Superior Court, said his calendar is often so swamped that he gives only a cursory glance to plea agreements before signing them. He said he would be interested if a lawyer were to challenge drug-fund payments as part of plea deals.
    "It can appear to be the purchase of a lesser charge," Mura said.
    Several lawyers began questioning the practice this spring, after news stories detailed a similar but distinct practice in the central Washington city of Kennewick, where defendants in misdemeanor cases saw their charges dismissed or reduced in exchange for contributions to charities selected by the prosecutor. There, $18,000 in charity contributions vanished.
    There are no allegations of missing money in Whatcom County. In interviews with the AP, McEachran defended the practice, which he inaugurated in the late 1970s, as ethically sound. The payments, he argued, should be considered a fine, part of the penalty for the offense - just like restitution in embezzlement cases. In such cases, defendants often get less jail time if they can repay the victims.
    But several lawyers, law professors and other prosecutors drew a distinction. This isn't restitution, they said, and it's not a penalty prescribed by law: It's a payment to avoid punishment.
    "Plea bargaining isn't always pretty, but this just seems to make a mockery of it," said Helen Anderson, who teaches criminal law at the University of Washington law school.
    "You kind of wonder, 'Gee, is this quite right?'" said Bellingham defense attorney Thomas Fryer. "But if you're looking at it as the best possible arrangement for your client, you're not going to just take a stand. If that means a drug-fund contribution, so be it."
    McEachran insists his prosecutors strive to be fair, and disputes the notion that the system favors those most able to pay: "We just don't see that."
    McEachran said his office entered into a deal with Sutton because it had less evidence against him: Though Sutton drove by repeatedly and was in cell phone contact as Hubbard bought the 7 pounds of marijuana, Sutton never touched the drugs. Hubbard was caught red-handed, so he wouldn't have been offered a deal, McEachran said.
    The AP found several cases in which people caught with more marijuana than Hubbard made drug-fund payments in exchange for reduced charges. Hubbard's lawyer, Andrew Subin of Bellingham, suggested the only reason his client didn't get a deal was because he's poor. He drives a $500 truck and often works seven days a week to support his girlfriend's disabled child, Subin said.
    When Sutton's charge was reduced to a gross misdemeanor, Subin asked the deputy prosecutor, Craig Chambers, "Where's my deal?" Chambers directed an interview request to McEachran, but according to Subin, his response was: "When your guy has $10,000, then we can talk."
    "Who's the big player, and who walks away from this getting screwed?" said Subin. He also wondered: If the case against Sutton was so weak, why did it cost him nearly $10,000 to have the charge reduced?
    Sutton's lawyer, Jeff Steinborn of Seattle, supports Whatcom County's practice.
    "Anything that mitigates the harshness of this insane drug law is a good thing," he said.
    Another of Subin's clients, 22-year-old community college student Jesse Gilsoul, pleaded guilty to felony marijuana possession last month for having less than 2 ounces of marijuana. Prosecutors offered him the chance to pay $2,000 to have the charge reduced to a misdemeanor, according to both sides.
    Gilsoul, who lost one of his two restaurant jobs following his arrest in December, said he did not have the money. He was sentenced to a month of community service and $1,800 in fines and court costs, to be paid as he is able. He fears the felony, his first offense, will jeopardize his financial aid.
    "I wish I did have that rich uncle," Gilsoul said. "Obviously, if I was making a profit off drugs, I could come up with a couple grand real easily."
    McEachran had little sympathy, noting that Gilsoul failed a lie-detector test when he said he did not intend to sell the marijuana. But the test was administered after Gilsoul failed to pay the drug fund. If he had come up with the money, the issue of his honesty would never have arisen.
    Subin acknowledged that defendants don't necessarily have to pay to have charges reduced - it just helps.
    Jon Ostlund, the Whatcom County public defender, said he could think of two cases where charges were reduced because the defendant agreed to perform 240 hours of community service before sentencing. Prompted partly by the AP's reporting, his office held a meeting about the practice recently; staff members said they would like to see more cases in which alternatives to the drug fund payment are accepted.
    "If there's a policy that rich people can buy their way out of a case, I don't have the impression that's what's happening here," Ostlund said. But, he added, "I'm sure there are cases where we weren't able to work out something, and maybe they would have been able to if they had more money."
    Irwin Schwartz, chairman of the American Bar Association's criminal standards committee, declined to comment on Whatcom County's practice, but said he hopes to form a task force to examine "best practices" for handling drug courts, deferred prosecutions and nonprosecution agreements.
    A spokeswoman at the National District Attorneys Association said she had not heard of the practice being used in other states. Pam Loginsky, a spokeswoman with the Washington Association of Prosecuting Attorneys, said she had never heard of a county in Washington state negotiating drug fund payments as part of plea deals.
    The prosecutor's offices in King, Snohomish, Pierce and Spokane counties all said money is not on the table when they negotiate plea deals.
    "We do reduce a lot of felony drug charges to misdemeanor charges, but it's not based on whether you can pay a $1,000 fine," said Joan Cavagnaro, chief criminal deputy prosecutor in Snohomish County. "It's based on the strength of the case."
    John Strait, a legal ethics expert at Seattle University Law, said four lawyers have contacted him recently with questions about Whatcom County's practice. He noted that the U.S. Supreme Court has struck down systems where defendants can choose paying a fine or doing time, because it often means jail for those who can't afford to pay.
    There's also a potential conflict of interest, he said, because McEachran's office is making charging decisions based in part on the money it can obtain for a fund he administers.
    "We should be punishing people for what they've done, rather than by who's going to give us money," Strait said.


    The local Prosecutor, who started this back in 1979, contends that 'justice isn't for sale':

    http://www.bellinghamherald.com/apps...0339/1001/NEWS
    It seems rather obvious that it is, though.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Justice isn't for sale, local prosecutor says

    JOHN STARK
    THE BELLINGHAM HERALD

    Whatcom County Prosecuting Attorney Dave McEachran says it is "just absurd" to suggest that drug defendants can get better plea bargains if they have money to pay into the county's drug fund.
    He also offered no apologies for his office's creation of the fund, which he said brings in about $143,000 a year from people convicted of drug-related crimes.
    "Every dollar that's paid into the drug fund is one less dollar that taxpayers have to pay," McEachran said.
    McEachran was responding to an Associated Press story suggesting that Whatcom County drug defendants may be able to negotiate better plea bargain terms if they have enough money to contribute to the county's drug fund.
    Is justice for sale in Whatcom County?
    "I can tell you categorically that it's not," McEachran said.
    The drug-fund money is used to pay a variety of law-enforcement expenses related to Whatcom County's large number of drug defendants, resulting from the county's location on the Canadian border along the Interstate 5 corridor between Seattle and Vancouver, B.C.
    McEachran has been prosecutor since 1975. The elected position now pays him $124,128 a year. He set up the fund in 1979, following provisions in state law. He noted that those convicted of criminal offenses also face a variety of state legal fees that have been imposed to make them pay as much as they can to support the system that must deal with them.
    Criminal fines and drug fund payments are frequently imposed as part of a plea bargain, in which a drug defendant enters a guilty plea in return for a reduced offense or sentence, McEachran said. Plea bargains are tailored to the individual circumstances of each defendant, he added.
    If the Prosecutor's Office faces two drug defendants in similar cases, one with money and one penniless, who will come out better?
    "We're going to try to make sure that we punish both those people," McEachran said.
    Plea bargains negotiated among defendants, defense lawyers and prosecutors must be approved by Superior Court judges, McEachran added.
    Two of the county's three judges acknowledged they have little time to review the plea deals.
    "When we're doing 40 cases in a half day, we don't really have time to inquire," Judge Charles Snyder said.
    Judge Steve Mura agreed, saying he has dealt with as many as 120 criminal cases in a single day.
    "It's a zoo," he said. "It moves so fast and furious, we've got about 2½ minutes to take a plea and impose a sentence."
    Mura also said no defense attorney has ever complained to him about the unfairness of the system, and he has never been asked to rule on the propriety of any relationship between plea bargains and drug-fund payments here.
    But he also said that prosecuting attorneys have sometimes seemed more interested in collecting drug-fund payments than in collecting regular fines for drug offenses. The county keeps all the drug-fund payments, but splits fine money 50-50 with the state.
    Mura said he occasionally has rejected plea deals in which a drug defendant's entire financial penalty is paid to the drug fund, and has insisted that the state get its share to help pay the state's own criminal-justice costs. He also said he has told prosecutors he wants to see an itemized breakdown of financial penalties imposed in drug cases, to make sure the state is getting its share.
    He also observed that under a state sentencing system in place for close to 20 years, judges have very little discretion in deciding how much of a sentence to impose upon conviction. The prosecutor has more influence on the amount of fine and prison time, because the prosecutor has discretion on what offenses to charge, Mura said.
    "If you want the honest truth, all we are is scriveners," Mura said. "We sign paperwork."
    Judge Ira Uhrig was not immediately available for comment Friday.
    Two local defense attorneys had differing perspectives on how the system works here.
    Jeff Lustick said he thought the drug fund was a reasonable response to the heavy load of drug cases here. He doesn't believe the drug fund lets wealthier defendants off the hook.
    Lustick said he and other attorneys often make offers of drug fund contributions as one part of a plea deal.
    "I've had times when it's been rejected and the prosecutor says no," Lustick said.
    Prosecutors have valid reasons for accepting plea bargains that may seem lenient. Many cases involve small amounts of drugs, defendants with clean records or evidence that is less than airtight, Lustick said. A drug fund payment is a likely part of a plea deal for a defendant who can afford it, but cash-strapped defendants can make other deals if circumstances are right.
    "I've had people who didn't have a lot of cash, and I have always, underline always, been able to work it out with prosecutors," he said. "It's not like the Whatcom County prosecutor is demanding money from people who don't have it. ... It takes a little longer and sometimes you have to do a little bit of extra negotiating ... but the drug fund thing does not come down as an ultimatum. ... There are almost always ways to work around the drug fund requirement."
    Attorney Starck Follis observed that the legal system always works best for those with money.
    "The people who can afford an adequate defense and expert witnesses and so forth have better access to all of the justice system," he said.
    Follis said every plea bargain is developed after prosecutors weigh many factors - the nature of a case, the defendant's track record, and the quality of the state's evidence, among others. But he acknowledged that ability to pay into the drug fund can also be a factor.
    If the Prosecutor's Office faces two drug defendants in similar cases, one with money and one penniless, who will come out better? Follis' answer to that question was different from McEachran's.
    "The person with the money does have the opportunity to purchase himself some leniency in one sense or another," Follis said. "That does happen and that's unfortunate."
    In some cases, Follis said, a defendant gets several months continuance to raise enough money to offer as part of a plea deal.
    But he also said that prosecutors try to be consistent from case to case, and defense attorneys are quick to complain to prosecutors about cases in which today's defendant seems to be getting tougher treatment than a defendant in a similar case yesterday.
    And the forced payment of thousands of dollars into the county drug fund is not a punishment to sneeze at.
    "It's a bite out of a defendant's apple," he said.


    The Prosecutor's chances of continuing employment are dropping, I'd say.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    How is it unjust? Obviously, they consider it a lesser crime when someone pays into the fund to help stop drugs. There is a clear difference between the two things, so I do not see why the government must treat two dissimilar things similarly.

    But hey, legally keeping someone from adopting an unnormal lifestyle that effects only their self is alright with me.


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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    This allows people with more money to get lesser sentences based on the sole fact that they are better off than others.

    And it comes close to bribery.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Quote Originally Posted by CR
    This allows people with more money to get lesser sentences based on the sole fact that they are better off than others.
    With a statement like that, I would think that you were a socialist, there are many legal constructs that bestow more oportunity onto those who have money.

    It's not based on the fact that they have money. It's based on the fact that they pay money. Those are two different things. Money affords many extra priveleges outside of the context of this law anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by CR
    And it comes close to bribery.
    Bribery is for personal use of money. This is for the use of society, and is hardly bribery. It is actually quite opposite of it.
    Last edited by Kanamori; 06-10-2006 at 21:13.

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    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Justice should not be for sale. Since people's ability to pay varies, justice is no longer blind.

    Note that Rush Limbaugh also seems to have gotten off easier after agreeing to pay $30,000:

    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1146487050585
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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    Justice should not be for sale. Since people's ability to pay varies, justice is no longer blind.
    Sorry, but I think that Lenin (yes, Lenin) explained very well, with very simple words why justice cannot be "just" (pun intended) while blind. Beyond that, this is exactly the case in wich the justice system is actually blind, it doesn't consider any condition of the person to differenciate the result, it only establishes a penalty. The differences are social and economic, and previous to justice. In any case, what would be the proposal then: Put all offenders in jail because there's some of them that cannot pay? Or perhaps reducing the ammount of money to a point in wich it bears no more significance than a pat.

    For an opinion, see Kanamori's, I agree completly with what he said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Rich Drug-using criminals are a resource to be exploited as they are punished, unlike poorer criminals who a drain no matter what. Why not take advantage of that wealth to offset the massive waste of tax dollars that is the poor criminal?
    Interesting.
    Last edited by Soulforged; 06-10-2006 at 22:47.
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Look, what does a poor drug-using criminal have to offer? A waste of tax-dollars in the jails. A waste of tax dollars on the streets. Generally a waste everywhere.

    Rich Drug-using criminals are a resource to be exploited as they are punished, unlike poorer criminals who a drain no matter what. Why not take advantage of that wealth to offset the massive waste of tax dollars that is the poor criminal?
    Leeching off wealthy criminals instead of punishing them is bribery pure and simple.

    The 'resources' gained from such criminals will never be pumped back into law enforcement but are used for Christmas do's and holidays.
    If it happens, it will be a self-serving self-perpetuating cycle of police handlers with their 'criminal clients'.

    If wealthy criminals should be punished with jail time because it hurts them much more than a paltry fine.

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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    It's hardly surprising that one can opt to pay a 'fine' and skip out on jail time for a victimless crime.

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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Two problems with this
    1. You have to pay the money up front, so it is only available to those with ready cash
    2. You don't just get out of jail, your crime is reduced from a felony to a misdemeanor.


    This means that not all people are treated equally before the law.
    We all learn from experience. Unfortunately we don't all learn as much as we should.

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    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Two problems with this

    1. You have to pay the money up front, so it is only available to those with ready cash
    2. You don't just get out of jail, your crime is reduced from a felony to a misdemeanor.


    This means that not all people are treated equally before the law.
    Actually they are. The law says that if you pay, you get less. They're not writing into the law that certain people cannot pay the money.

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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    I would accept what you say if I could also accept, for example, the idea that people could get their sentences commuted by jumping up an touching a cross 7ft above the ground or by translating the Gettysburg address into French without any mistakes. Superficially equal but not actualy fair. If the law said pay a fine or go to jail, that is one thing, but here the money has to be paid up front. Thus, those with money buy more lenient treatment. If income was sequestered until the fine was paid, or those with less ready money were given time to pay, that would be fine. This law is equal but not fair.
    We all learn from experience. Unfortunately we don't all learn as much as we should.

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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Depends entirely on implementation. I'm not saying we should implement a system like this, but I think it is doable and beneficial if done right.

    One would have to watch out for alot of pitfalls though. Best solution to the whole problem is to stop spending so much on criminals, period.
    However its implemented, it can never be ethical. Its just an excuse by crooked prosecutors and dirty cops not to follow asset forfeiture laws to fatten their own pockets.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Even cheaper is to legalise drugs! Revolutionary I know and would probably cause a complete meltdown of civilisation as we know it...



    The idea seems to come close to allowing drugs into the country as long as they pay an import tax to allow the police to catch others who didn't pay the import tax. Legalisation by the back door American style.

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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    When 5k is the difference between doing 5 years and walking away with a slap on the hand -- be in contributing to a fund or hiring a hotshot atorney (20k for that)-- its pretty good indication that the law is flawed.

    We're not talking about murder cases, they are drug crimes. The frikkin court appointed attorneys have a budget and are funded and hired by the state prosecuting the case. Drug laws turn poor people into convicted felons, and even a misdemeanor conviction will prevent you from getting financial aid for college, while other charges don't.

    The Drug War is a machine that needs victims to feed itself. To think of all the lives that have been ruined for having some pot. For those of you who think one deserves prison because one can't buy his or her way out - i hope someone close to you is ruined because of a petty drug offense, and I hope its something ridiculous. Meanwhile, enjoy your corporate prescription drugs and go drink your liver into a pickel and eat some fried chicken, hypocrites.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    The trutly 'bad' part about this is that paying into the fund gets the charge reduced. In other words, if you can afford to contribute, you've somehow committed a lesser crime.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester
    Two problems with this
    1. You have to pay the money up front, so it is only available to those with ready cash
    2. You don't just get out of jail, your crime is reduced from a felony to a misdemeanor.


    This means that not all people are treated equally before the law.
    You mean...something isn't FAIR?! Dearie me, this is impossible!

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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    You mean...something isn't FAIR?! Dearie me, this is impossible!
    Most experts in jurisprudence hold that, whilst life may not be fair, the legal system should at least aspire to fairness. This is why they use the word "justice" so often!
    We all learn from experience. Unfortunately we don't all learn as much as we should.

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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Such an aspiration is a farce.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    We generally shout about those things that are in fact lacking.

    After all, it is already the case that celebs never seem to get caught, and I am sure we can add other figures to that as well. Good to hear that instead of intimidation and assassination which are expensive there is a cheaper alternative.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  20. #20
    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Quote Originally Posted by GoreBag
    Such an aspiration is a farce.
    Might as well not bother with any legal system at all then.
    We all learn from experience. Unfortunately we don't all learn as much as we should.

  21. #21
    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    The fact that someone is thrown into prison by chosing a lifestyle that effects only them is evil in the first place, and anything that reduces that is good.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanamori
    The fact that someone is thrown into prison by chosing a lifestyle that effects only them is evil in the first place, and anything that reduces that is good.
    I'd like to keep the govt out of peoples lives but methamphetamines is the 800lb gorilla of a problem that is ignored by anti-prohibitionist movement. I doubt it just affects the addict.

  23. #23
    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    So, is your problem with smoked methamphetamine, because I do not think that smoking around people in an enclosed space or in public is necessarily a right -- or brewing dangerous chemicals in a residential area. Otherwise, the methamphetamine only effects the user.

  24. #24
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    At what dose is methamphetamines a problem? Do we know? Are lower doses "safe"?
    Is it the method of production and the impurities that are present that causes the problem?

    IMO to lambast drugs as they currently are should be compared with alcohol made from an illegal still. Then suddenly they appear to be surprisingly safe.

    Even when something is legal the user is still responsible for their actions with it. I find it funny that a society where guns are legal and there is implicit trust you won't go on a massacre but drugs aren't - as people on drugs can be dangerous...

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  25. #25
    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
    Even when something is legal the user is still responsible for their actions with it. I find it funny that a society where guns are legal and there is implicit trust you won't go on a massacre but drugs aren't - as people on drugs can be dangerous...
    Guns are good. People kill people, not guns. Drugs and sex are bad. People can't be trusted with such potent things.
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
    At what dose is methamphetamines a problem? Do we know? Are lower doses "safe"?
    Is it the method of production and the impurities that are present that causes the problem?

    IMO to lambast drugs as they currently are should be compared with alcohol made from an illegal still. Then suddenly they appear to be surprisingly safe.

    Even when something is legal the user is still responsible for their actions with it. I find it funny that a society where guns are legal and there is implicit trust you won't go on a massacre but drugs aren't - as people on drugs can be dangerous...
    Methamphetamines more commonly known as speed is unsafe period. Its so highly addictive quitting is extremely difficult. The liberal 60s drug culture coined phrase 'speed kills'. If that isn't enough warning, I don't know what is.

  27. #27
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    pretty sure the whole money=freedom thing has been around for ages, but usually it's been through the courtroom.

    this is just another recipe for the same old cake.

  28. #28
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Nicotine kills. Alcohol kills. Stick a label on the side of the pipe / syringe / whatever.

    People should be free to mess up their own life. I don't see why the state shouldn't tax it though.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  29. #29
    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy Yourself Freedom From Drug Charges!

    Methamphetamines more commonly known as speed is unsafe period.
    Any amphetamine is speed, not methamphetamine. It relates more to a high dose of any of the closely related drugs too. So, high doses of methylphenidate (ritalin) are nearly the same as high doses of amphetamine (adderall) which is speed. Methamphetamine is very different. They give our pilots speed in order to keep them awake, and then they trip them out w/ ambien. Also, speed is very unlikely to kill you even in many overdoses unless it is mixed unfavorably.

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