Apparently, despair is now an act of war

**Tribesman** · 06-11-2006, 14:23

What worries me is thinking that someone so advanced in the US military might really think that.

Well that is down to the new ranking system , a rear admiral is now someone who is backwards .

**Crazed Rabbit** · 06-11-2006, 17:35

I think most of the people there are not American citizens, but fighters captured overseas. The idea of giving them trials in the American civilian justice system is somewhat rediculous. You don't give POWs trials, especially since they'd just turn into show trials.

Crazed Rabbit

**Hurin_Rules** · 06-11-2006, 17:47

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I think most of the people there are not American citizens, but fighters captured overseas. The idea of giving them trials in the American civilian justice system is somewhat rediculous. You don't give POWs trials, especially since they'd just turn into show trials.

Ah, but you do give POWs POW status, don't you? Visits from the Red Cross, fair military tribunals, freed after the conflict, etc. etc. And that is something the administration will not do. Hence, in the case of the captured Taliban at least, they are violating the laws of war. The Taliban was a militia defending its country, and yet not even they are considered POWs.

To reiterate: 9/11 was an act of War. America is at War. There is a War on Terror going on. But the prisoners captured in it are not Prisoners of War.

Ridiculous.

**Hurin_Rules** · 06-11-2006, 17:50

And now, in the category of 'most callous statements ever', a top US official called the deaths a 'good PR move'.

Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'

A top US official has described the suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a "good PR move to draw attention".

Colleen Graffy told the BBC the deaths were part of a strategy and "a tactic to further the jihadi cause", but taking their own lives was unnecessary.

But lawyers say the men who hanged themselves had been driven by despair.

A military investigation into the deaths is under way, amid growing calls for the centre to be moved or closed.

Speaking to the BBC's Newshour programme, Ms Graffy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy, said the three men did not value their lives nor the lives of those around them.

Detainees had access to lawyers, received mail and had the ability to write to families, so had other means of making protests, she said, and it was hard to see why the men had not protested about their situation.

The men, two Saudis and a Yemeni, were found unresponsive and not breathing by guards on Saturday morning, said officials.

They were in separate cells in Camp One, the highest security section of the prison.

Despair

There have been dozens of suicide attempts since the camp was set up four years ago - but none successful until now.

I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of warfare waged against us

Rear Adm Harry Harris Camp commander

Ken Roth, head of Human Rights Watch in New York, told the BBC the men had probably been driven by despair.

"These people are despairing because they are being held lawlessly," he said.

"There's no end in sight. They're not being brought before any independent judges. They're not being charged and convicted for any crime."

That view was supported by British Muslim Moazzam Begg who spent three years in Guantanamo. He said of the camp's inmates: "They're in a worse situation than convicted criminals and it's an act of desperation."

But earlier, the camp commander, Rear Adm Harris said he did not believe the men had killed themselves out of despair.

"They are smart. They are creative, they are committed," he said.

"They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."

Calls for closure

US officials are facing growing international calls for the camp to be closed down.

"If it's perfectly legal and there's nothing going wrong there - well, why don't they have it in America and then the American court system can supervise it?" UK Constitutional Affairs Minister Harriet Harman told the BBC on Sunday.

But Ms Graffy said closing down Guantanamo was a "complicated process" which needed to consider what would happen to detainees if the centre was shut down.

On Friday, Mr Bush said he would "like to end Guantanamo", adding he believed the inmates "ought to be tried in courts here in the United States".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5069230.stm

**rory_20_uk** · 06-11-2006, 17:51

Try them at the Hague then. International courts. We would then be able to ascertain what if any evidence has been gained, and who should be held.

We all know the likely outcome of the light of the law being shone into the dank hole that is Guantanamo. Hence why this is not going to happen without a great change in the USA's administration. That would be good - send all to the Hague, release 80+% of them and start a new leaf, with the blame left behind as a legacy of Bush.

**scooter_the_shooter** · 06-11-2006, 23:42

The people there are terrorist and you guys sympathize with them?

They want to kill me or convert me so....I don't care what happens to them. (I know this will get me flamed by all the bleeding hearts out there)

Many people don't seem to get that were playing for keeps in the war on terror.

**Tribesman** · 06-11-2006, 23:50

The people there are terrorist
Yeah ??? prove it then .

Many people don't seem to get that were playing for keeps in the war on terror.
Nope , the administration is playing silly buggers in the war on terror , or hadn't you noticed .

**rory_20_uk** · 06-11-2006, 23:51

(sigh) they are suspects. And after months / years there is not enough evidence to convict any of them.

**Ronin** · 06-12-2006, 01:47

Originally Posted by ceasar010

The people there are terrorist and you guys sympathize with them?

They want to kill me or convert me so....I don't care what happens to them. (I know this will get me flamed by all the bleeding hearts out there)

Many people don't seem to get that were playing for keeps in the war on terror.

If you have proof to back up what you´re saying please present it......

until then these are people that are being held without formal charges or a hearing...

**Alexander the Pretty Good** · 06-12-2006, 02:56

Cube - isn't the majority there not US citizens?

Do non-Americans deserve "the full gamut of our legal system" (and I'm asking out of unfamiliarity with our legal system on this one).

Sending them to the Hague - yeah, real good.

What happened to Milosevich (sp)? Died in prison - from a heart attack. Before trial, if I remember correctly.

I'm leaning towards trying them all, but certainly not in the ICJ.

**Ser Clegane** · 06-12-2006, 08:55

Originally Posted by ceasar010

The people there are terrorist and you guys sympathize with them?

They want to kill me or convert me so....I don't care what happens to them. (I know this will get me flamed by all the bleeding hearts out there)

Many people don't seem to get that were playing for keeps in the war on terror.

There is an update that is interesting in the context of the above statement:

Dead detainee 'was to be freed'

Originally Posted by Mark Denbeaux

"We've just learned that one of the three people who killed himself was one of the 141 that we [the US] had scheduled to release.

"However our policy was we would refuse to tell people who were scheduled to be released until we had a location.

"So we had decided this was a safe person, free to be released, but we needed a country to send him to, and his despair was great enough and in his ignorance he went and killed himself."

**Fragony** · 06-12-2006, 09:04

Aren't they technically prisoners of war? Since when are pow trialed, they get send back when the war is over. How suicide is an act of war is beyond me though.