Creation vs Evolution

[_Martyr_]

So, the world is 6000 years old?

[crossroad]

So, the world is 6000 years old?

Probably a few more than that. Could be 60 billion! I don't know what God did with His possessions before Creation.

[yesdachi]

There is a nice line in the bible that says “The righteous will live by faith.” Anyone trying to prove gods existence is going against gods will? No?

[crossroad]

There is a nice line in the bible that says “The righteous will live by faith.” Anyone trying to prove gods existence is going against gods will? No?

Actually, that verse is pointing out that you cannot work your way into God's favor.

[Kanamori]

If there's no support, then there's no reason to warrant a conclusion. Creation may have happened as described, but until I'm shown the logic behind it, I have no justification to that belief. I also have no proof of many other things, and no disproof, and I wonder why one would believe one reasonless conclusion above all the others and w/o all the others.

[Kanamori]

“The righteous will live by faith.”

I say that the righteous must understand just how they are right, and they will be unable to be righteous w/ just faith to lead them.

[crossroad]

If there's no support, then there's no reason to warrant a conclusion. Creation may have happened as described, but until I'm shown the logic behind it, I have no justification to that belief. I also have no proof of many other things, and no disproof, and I wonder why one would believe one reasonless conclusion above all the others and w/o all the others.

The two basic thoughts here are, either, everything came from nothing, or everything came from something. (I know some are going to go crazy with that one) But, if you narrow it down, that is what you have. It is cause and effect at the core, as evolution is built on, but evolution does not have a cause for its origin. But the Big Bang is the cause, right? No, the Big Bang is the effect of something. I choose to believe that everything came from Something.

[doc_bean]

The two basic thoughts here are, either, everything came from nothing, or everything came from something. (I know some are going to go crazy with that one) But, if you narrow it down, that is what you have. It is cause and effect at the core, as evolution is built on, but evolution does not have a cause for its origin. But the Big Bang is the cause, right? No, the Big Bang is the effect of something. I choose to believe that everything came from Something.

But what did that Something come from then ?

If you say that Something is God, why not say that something is the universe and it has always been, possible expanding and contracting, forever and ever and ever... ?

[crossroad]

But what did that Something come from then ?

If you say that Something is God, why not say that something is the universe and it has always been, possible expanding and contracting, forever and ever and ever... ?

Are you kidding me? You're trying to impose God-like characters on the Universe.

[doc_bean]

Are you kidding me? You're trying to impose God-like characters on the Universe.

Why wouldn't I ? How is your theory of a God better than mine of an Eternal universe ?

Seriously, i can see the universe, or at least part of, God has yet to reveal Himself...

[Tribesman]

Actually, that's survival of the fittest, the natural progression of nature.
Well bugger me sideways with a yardbrush and call me Sandra , crossroads understands evolution

[crossroad]

Actually, that's survival of the fittest, the natural progression of nature.
Well bugger me sideways with a yardbrush and call me Sandra , crossroads understands evolution

Yes, that is why I am a creationist.

[Papewaio]

The two basic thoughts here are, either, everything came from nothing, or everything came from something. (I know some are going to go crazy with that one) But, if you narrow it down, that is what you have. It is cause and effect at the core, as evolution is built on, but evolution does not have a cause for its origin. But the Big Bang is the cause, right? No, the Big Bang is the effect of something. I choose to believe that everything came from Something.

Evolution is a theory in Biology.

The Big Bang is a snappy name made for media to descride the starting few seconds of our universe... it is part of a theory in Cosmology (Physics).

Gravity is a theory in Physics.

They are all separate theories.

Gravity has a cause for it: Classical version is the mass of objects attract each other. Relativity basically explains it as a warping of space... much like putting a bowling ball onto a trampoline will warp it, if you then place a tennis ball on the trampoline it will follow the warped fabric down to the bowling ball, if you gave the tennis ball a push it could circle the bowling ball... each circle would be an orbit.

Evolution: Is caused by things reproducing imperfectly. Overtime these errors will either kill the mutant (more likely) or give it a subtle advantage. No where in the theory of evolution is the Big Bang the cause of it. Evolution will work regardless of how the universe was started, if it has lasted for infinity or it had different laws of gravity.

In fact evolution may be the only theory that would consistently work across multiverses that have different laws of physics (it may be the only Meta-law so to speak).

Evolution and Gravity are separate theories, just as the Big Bang is too.

If everything came from something you have two sets of problems to solve... where did the something come from,
Quantum Physics:
random nature therefore untraceable cause and effect,
singularities
vacuum created particles (how we see black holes for instance).

[Tribesman]

But I don't understand , which is better Igloo or Tapir?

[_Martyr_]

Probably a few more than that. Could be 60 billion! I don't know what God did with His possessions before Creation.

Im not talking about some empty universe that God was sitting around on his own in. Im talking about the birds and the trees, the mountains and lakes and of course, humans. How old are all of these? The Bible indicates an age of about 6000 years. Is this correct do you think?

[crossroad]

Im not talking about some empty universe that God was sitting around on his own in. Im talking about the birds and the trees, the mountains and lakes and of course, humans. How old are all of these? The Bible indicates an age of about 6000 years. Is this correct do you think?

I think more. But not more than 100,000. 100,000 would really be pushing it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think more. But not more than 100,000. 100,000 would really be pushing it.

So you argue the Bible is completely wrong on the age of the earth?

Look, crossroad, I have this book that argues the world is actually flat and rides through space on the back of a turtle. I find it really convincing, because, let's face it, if you look really hard at the horizon in a squinty manner, it's sort of curved like a big turtle shell.

Can you provide logical arguments as to why my book is wrong and yours is right?

(Martyr, I too have been Touched by His Noodly Appendage and 'tis only through his Sauce that I find the courage to engage in this 'debate')

[crossroad]

So you argue the Bible is completely wrong on the age of the earth?

Can you provide logical arguments as to why my book is wrong and yours is right?

Oh, right, I forgot that on page 72 of the Bible, it says the age of the earth is exactly... No, the Bible never says. The truth is, we really don't know. How old was Adam, the day after he was created? One day? Thirty? If a doctor examined him how old would he appear?

The truth is, I don't know how old the Universe is. It could appear to be billions of years old, and may only have existed for 6,000 years.

God can do what He wants.

[Tribesman]

The bible clearly states what a Christian is. And a murder is not one
Don'tya jusrt love confronting some feckwit who claims shite from the bible , yet who has probably not read or understoodfeical from the bible .
So come on crossroads , you want to talk biblical shite ,lets get real old testament , as in answering genesis and book of Genesis , throw in book of Enoch and any other faith based thoughts you might have, been through it all before and it don't amount to a pile of beans .

Now young man , would you care to reference the passage from the bible where it says murder is OK ? or are we talking King Panzer vs Type XXII

[Duke of Gloucester]

All I am attempting to establish is whether or not selective breeding is the mechanism we observe when "adaptation" occurs in microbiology. If it is not, what is the mechanism. You're getting a lot of mileage by arguing about whether or not this "proves" evolution, a step I have deliberately not taken.

True, but others have.

I'll just jump in here, I'm not an evelutionary biolagist but this occurs to me. The basic genes contained in all animals are the same. The same gene governs your arm and a fly's wing. That surely is compelling evidence of a common ancestor.

Now, take a snake for example. The snake has the genes to create legs but it's genome switches the gene off on every vertebrae and they all register a chest cavety with ribs instead but should the switch be flicked back on the snake could have ten legs.

Of course this could also be evidence of the same creator, although a common ancestor is a plausible explanation.

Look at Coyotes and Wolves, virtually the same genetically, they must have a common ancestor, if evolution is true, they look different but genetically the difference is close to nill. So maybe in looking at the record you need to fuzz the definition of species to see the crossover.

The definition of species is pretty fuzzy in any case. The Cyote/Wolf situation could also be explained by reference to a creator.

[crossroad]

The bible clearly states what a Christian is. And a murder is not one
Don'tya jusrt love confronting some feckwit who claims shite from the bible , yet who has probably not read or understoodfeical from the bible .
So come on crossroads , you want to talk biblical shite ,lets get real old testament , as in answering genesis and book of Genesis , throw in book of Enoch and any other faith based thoughts you might have, been through it all before and it don't amount to a pile of beans .

Now young man , would you care to reference the passage from the bible where it says murder is OK ? or are we talking King Panzer vs Type XXII

Ahh, there is no book of Enoch.

[_Martyr_]

I point you towards the Vostok or EPICA ice cores which can be dated to 420,000 and 720,000 years respectively. These cores are many km long, having been drilled vertically downward into the ice caps. When the cores are examined, the snowfall of each year can be chemically and otherwise examined, and then by adding up the number of anual layers, we get the age of the oldest layer. How do you explain this? Snow that fell 620,000 years before the earth was formed?

Also, if the Bible implies that the world is 6000 years old, why do you as a Creationist claim it is 100,000 years old? Surely the Bible knows best in this matter? Or is it aligorical?

Also, explain sedamentary rock, the existence of fossils in general, fossil fuels which came from once living organisms, pretty much the entire area of radiometric dating (explain Pb/Pb isochron age of the earth as about 4.55 (+- 1%) billion years for instance...), the common age of the rest of the solar system, I could go on and on...

[crossroad]

I point you towards the Vostok or EPICA ice cores which can be dated to 420,000 and 720,000 years respectively. These cores are many km long, having been drilled vertically downward into the ice caps. When the cores are examined, the snowfall of each year can be chemically and otherwise examined, and then by adding up the number of anual layers, we get the age of the oldest layer. How do you explain this? Snow that fell 620,000 years before the earth was formed?

Or, they happened in a very short period of time. Such as the sedimentary layers that were layed in one day when Mount St. Helens erupted. Approx. 400 feet of stratum was formed where evolutionists insists it takes millions of years.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs...6st_helens.asp
http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=...=view&page=261

Also, explain sedamentary rock, the existence of fossils in general, fossil fuels which came from once living organisms, pretty much the entire area of radiometric dating (explain Pb/Pb isochron age of the earth as about 4.55 (+- 1%) billion years for instance...), the common age of the rest of the solar system, I could go on and on...

I read once that scientist in Australia have discovered a way of making sedimentary rock using natural processes. (sorry I don't have that link at the moment.)
Fossils exist because of the world wide flood.
This is an interesting article of fossil fules - http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v11/i3/coal.asp
Radioactive decay - http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=...=view&page=207
Radioisotope Dating of Grand Canyon Rocks: Another Devastating Failure for Long-Age Geology - http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=...n=view&page=42
I could go on and on...

[Ronin]

not this damn discussion again.....


It´s evolution baby!.....case closed....

but....better than any argument I can present......here are my views on creationism, spoken by a true poet....


MR. Bill Hicks on creationism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDTqRnFccY0


P.S. - warning - a couple of F* bombs in there......but the truth shines through none the less...:P

[rory_20_uk]

Rubiduim used in a geochronometer makes the earth 4.55 billion years old. Apparently the half life of Rubidium isn't known for sure, so how one can measure something with a "ruler" of unknown length I don't know.

I wonder where the old God from the Bible went. He was something to believe in! Phophets of Baal? Kill them all! Egyptians? Wipe 'em out! Numerous tribes living in the wrong place - massive slaughter! Ethiopians attack - 1 million killed!

OK, so you had no idea how to please God as His temper made him like a psychotic off medication but He was certainly there!

Then after an interlude of something like 450 years we then get the "flower power" attack where apart from some people cured of a disease and some wine God has run out of steam. Insults that would have meant the purpetrator was the centre of a vitrified crater are now forgiven.

Personally I think God got married. Suddenly it all becomes clear - the teenager has grown up and has settled down. 450 years off whilst the newly weds got settled in, and then He's Mr Respectable.



Death as a way of advancement? Oh, so that's why Christians have killed so many people - they're helping them! Obvious really...

Yeah, Creationism came first, and was found to be marred with errors and unworkable. Eventually the Christians realised they couldn't kill everyone that disagreed with them (nor for want of trying!), so they backed off and regrouped.

Then the breakthrough - intelligent design!

Propaganda - what propaganda? You yourself seem to agree that survival of the fittest takes place. So, considering that that is a key part of evolution, what part are you not so keen on?

[crossroad]

Rubiduim used in a geochronometer makes the earth 4.55 billion years old. Apparently the half life of Rubidium isn't known for sure, so how one can measure something with a "ruler" of unknown length I don't know.

I wonder where the old God from the Bible went. He was something to believe in! Phophets of Baal? Kill them all! Egyptians? Wipe 'em out! Numerous tribes living in the wrong place - massive slaughter! Ethiopians attack - 1 million killed!

OK, so you had no idea how to please God as His temper made him like a psychotic off medication but He was certainly there!

Then after an interlude of something like 450 years we then get the "flower power" attack where apart from some people cured of a disease and some wine God has run out of steam. Insults that would have meant the purpetrator was the centre of a vitrified crater are now forgiven.

Personally I think God got married. Suddenly it all becomes clear - the teenager has grown up and has settled down. 450 years off whilst the newly weds got settled in, and then He's Mr Respectable.:

I'm going to ask Him about all that. Seriously, He created them, He can do whatever the heck He wants with them. Weak arguement, I know, but you have to consider that He is a God with a plan.

Death as a way of advancement? Oh, so that's why Christians have killed so many people - they're helping them! Obvious really...:

The bible clearly states what a Christian is. And a murder is not one. Because Hitler called himself superior, did that make his so?

Yeah, Creationism came first, and was found to be marred with errors and unworkable. Eventually the Christians realised they couldn't kill everyone that disagreed with them (nor for want of trying!), so they backed off and regrouped.:

You really don't know what it means to be Christian, do you?

Propaganda - what propaganda? You yourself seem to agree that survival of the fittest takes place. So, considering that that is a key part of evolution, what part are you not so keen on?

I just love repeating myself over and over. A species does not change into another species.