Creation vs Evolution

[crossroad]

So why did God kill of the dinosaurs ?

Animals go extinct every day.

Why are Creationists always so insecure, why can't there be a God and evolution ?

Insecure? That's like saying all Evolutionists are communists. Which they are not. Concerning God and evolution - God can use any method He chooses, but I don't think He uses macro-evolution.

[Ser Clegane]

God can use any method He chooses, but I don't think He uses macro-evolution.

So, what method do you think "he" uses?

[InsaneApache]

I read part of one of those links. Why do creationists insist on using terms such as these.

Many evolutionists believe

Evolution is not a belief system. (However creationism is).

This is akin to people of faiths insisting that atheism is a belief that God does not exist.

Why does this blind spot exist?

[doc_bean]

Animals go extinct every day.

So why did God create them if only to go extinct ? Wouldn't you say, some species surviving and others not is a sign of one species being better adapted than another ? Say, isn't this aking to evolution theory ?

Insecure? That's like saying all Evolutionists are communists. Which they are not. Concerning God and evolution - God can use any method He chooses, but I don't think He uses macro-evolution.

Creationism is a reaction towards evolution theory, which is a scientific theory, creationism is religious dogma. Not accepting evolution (as a viable THEORY at least, and really, as the best theory we have right now) is indeed similar to not believing in gravity, as Pape pointed out already.

Why do you want evolutionists do defend themselves btw, if creationism is that great explain to me what proof you have, don't point out the 'problems' with evolution, but give clear evidence pointing towards creation, say, all life having started around the same period would have been a good one, or all mammals having emerged during the same period even.

The burden of proof is upon the one who challenges the common paradigm.

[_Martyr_]

So, the world is 6000 years old?

[crossroad]

So, what method do you think "he" uses?

He uses any method He wants. Didn't I just say that?
I would not begin to put Him a my own little box of explaination.

[rory_20_uk]

Hmm. So basically the evidence of God bieng in control is non existent - but that's OK as he's so great none is required!

[crossroad]

I read part of one of those links. Why do creationists insist on using terms such as these.

Many evolutionists believe

Evolution is not a belief system. (However creationism is).

This is akin to people of faiths insisting that atheism is a belief that God does not exist.

Why does this blind spot exist?

Here is a couple of the difinitions of Religion. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.

Religion:
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

If you see a crime occur, you know it happened.
If you hear the evidence in a court room, you believe it happened based on the evidence.

[_Martyr_]

I feel the need to point out that the Spaghetti Monster does not take too kindly to this false God you speak of that supposedly created the universe... if you want to find the truth, look here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[Lemur]

Martyr, I had no idea you were a Pastafarian.

Crossroads, I'm curious -- if you accept that evolution occurs on the micro-level, what leads you to believe that the same rules to not apply to more complex organisms?

[_Martyr_]

Ive been a Pastafarian ever since His Noodleness showed me the divine path of Truth.

[InsaneApache]

Here is a couple of the difinitions of Religion. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.

Religion:
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

If you see a crime occur, you know it happened.
If you hear the evidence in a court room, you believe it happened based on the evidence.

So you need evidence to believe something then. So what evidence do you have that:

1 God exists.

2 That God greated the universe.

3 That evolution is a myth.



---------------------------------------------------------------

Ive been a Pastafarian ever since His Noodleness showed me the divine path of Truth.

May the sauce be with you.

[crossroad]

So why did God create them if only to go extinct ? Wouldn't you say, some species surviving and others not is a sign of one species being better adapted than another ? Say, isn't this aking to evolution theory ?.

Actually, that's survival of the fittest, the natural progression of nature. Some species go extinct. Are you saying death is a way of advancement? Strange concept unless you are a Christian. But we can save that debate for another Thread.

Creationism is a reaction towards evolution theory, which is a scientific theory, creationism is religious dogma. Not accepting evolution (as a viable THEORY at least, and really, as the best theory we have right now) is indeed similar to not believing in gravity, as Pape pointed out already.

Actually, evolution is a reaction to creation, which obviously was the first belief. The Bible came before Origin of the Species. Have you looked up the word Theory? Theory does not mean Proven Fact.

Why do you want evolutionists do defend themselves btw, if creationism is that great explain to me what proof you have, don't point out the 'problems' with evolution, but give clear evidence pointing towards creation, say, all life having started around the same period would have been a good one, or all mammals having emerged during the same period even.

The burden of proof is upon the one who challenges the common paradigm.

Go back and read the beginning of this thread. I simply said I was a creationist. It is I who am having to defend myself by the onslot of evolution propaganda. Look up geochronometer. The majority of them suggest a young earth.

[rory_20_uk]

The definition of belief clearly ommits evidence as a requirement.

But surely then atheism is a belief, as again there is no cast iron evidence to support it.

[crossroad]

So, the world is 6000 years old?

Probably a few more than that. Could be 60 billion! I don't know what God did with His possessions before Creation.

[yesdachi]

There is a nice line in the bible that says “The righteous will live by faith.” Anyone trying to prove gods existence is going against gods will? No?

[Kanamori]

If there's no support, then there's no reason to warrant a conclusion. Creation may have happened as described, but until I'm shown the logic behind it, I have no justification to that belief. I also have no proof of many other things, and no disproof, and I wonder why one would believe one reasonless conclusion above all the others and w/o all the others.

[crossroad]

Hmm. So basically the evidence of God bieng in control is non existent - but that's OK as he's so great none is required!

Its called permissive will.

[Kanamori]

“The righteous will live by faith.”

I say that the righteous must understand just how they are right, and they will be unable to be righteous w/ just faith to lead them.

[_Martyr_]

Probably a few more than that. Could be 60 billion! I don't know what God did with His possessions before Creation.

Im not talking about some empty universe that God was sitting around on his own in. Im talking about the birds and the trees, the mountains and lakes and of course, humans. How old are all of these? The Bible indicates an age of about 6000 years. Is this correct do you think?

[rory_20_uk]

Rubiduim used in a geochronometer makes the earth 4.55 billion years old. Apparently the half life of Rubidium isn't known for sure, so how one can measure something with a "ruler" of unknown length I don't know.

I wonder where the old God from the Bible went. He was something to believe in! Phophets of Baal? Kill them all! Egyptians? Wipe 'em out! Numerous tribes living in the wrong place - massive slaughter! Ethiopians attack - 1 million killed!

OK, so you had no idea how to please God as His temper made him like a psychotic off medication but He was certainly there!

Then after an interlude of something like 450 years we then get the "flower power" attack where apart from some people cured of a disease and some wine God has run out of steam. Insults that would have meant the purpetrator was the centre of a vitrified crater are now forgiven.

Personally I think God got married. Suddenly it all becomes clear - the teenager has grown up and has settled down. 450 years off whilst the newly weds got settled in, and then He's Mr Respectable.



Death as a way of advancement? Oh, so that's why Christians have killed so many people - they're helping them! Obvious really...

Yeah, Creationism came first, and was found to be marred with errors and unworkable. Eventually the Christians realised they couldn't kill everyone that disagreed with them (nor for want of trying!), so they backed off and regrouped.

Then the breakthrough - intelligent design!

Propaganda - what propaganda? You yourself seem to agree that survival of the fittest takes place. So, considering that that is a key part of evolution, what part are you not so keen on?

[crossroad]

Martyr, I had no idea you were a Pastafarian.

Crossroads, I'm curious -- if you accept that evolution occurs on the micro-level, what leads you to believe that the same rules to not apply to more complex organisms?

I used the word micro for your benefit, in reference to adaptation. The fossil record is void of evidence of one species evolving into another.

[rory_20_uk]

The fossil record is void of evidence of one species evolving into another.

That again is based on faith. To be able to use a few bones to detect the nuances of evolution is going to be extremely difficult.

New species can be created by scientists, so we don't need to go far to show that it does happen.

[Lemur]

I used the word micro for your benefit, in reference to adaptation.

Not quite sure I follow your distinction. Evolution is demonstrable among bacteria and viruses. If it were not, a lot of drug makers would be out of business, and microbiology would be a very boring field indeed.

Are you drawing a distinction between adaptation and evolution? I would like to follow your reasoning, but you may need to connect some dots for a lemur ...

[crossroad]

So you need evidence to believe something then. So what evidence do you have that:

1 God exists.

2 That God greated the universe.

3 That evolution is a myth.

1 The Universe. Jesus Christ. The Bible. The improbiblity of a human eye evolving... to mention a few.

2 Read the first post.

3 Fossil record, geochronometers, huge holes in the theory... to mention a few.

[crossroad]

There is a nice line in the bible that says “The righteous will live by faith.” Anyone trying to prove gods existence is going against gods will? No?

Actually, that verse is pointing out that you cannot work your way into God's favor.

[doc_bean]

Actually, that's survival of the fittest, the natural progression of nature. Some species go extinct. Are you saying death is a way of advancement? Strange concept unless you are a Christian. But we can save that debate for another Thread.

So all creatures that live and have ever lived have been created and some creatures go extinct, so in the end there will only be one creature left ? Or just a few ? Now, does that mean there were humans when there were dinosaurs ? because that seems to be what you're implying here....

Actually, evolution is a reaction to creation,

Not really, evolution was a progression of scientific theory at the time, creation wasn't really taken into account. That's like saying the 'round earth' theory is a reaction to the flat earth belief. It isn't, one was a belief, not based on evidence, the other is a scientific theory, based on observation.

which obviously was the first belief. The Bible came before Origin of the Species. Have you looked up the word Theory? Theory does not mean Proven Fact.

No a scientific theory is a (mathematical) model of observed facts, based on extrapolation of certain observation a theory is formed to predict future observations. The theory that best predicts observations is considered the best, and if it's really good it can be accepted as truth (see gravity).

Go back and read the beginning of this thread. I simply said I was a creationist. It is I who am having to defend myself by the onslot of evolution propaganda. Look up geochronometer. The majority of them suggest a young earth.

You're defending yourself, or trying to, by attacking the opposing theory, it doesn't work that way. you have to prove why your theory is good or better, not (just) by pointing out the faults in the other theory but by providing solutions to the existing problems or even unexplained phenomena. Creationism has more holes than evolution, which we will gladly point out (and can) because we're protecting the established scientific theory. A new theory has little to no use if it doesn't at least explain everything the previous one could.

BTW if God could create the universe how he wanted, why wouldn't he have done it through evolution ? Can you accept the *possibility* of God AND evolution ?

[crossroad]

If there's no support, then there's no reason to warrant a conclusion. Creation may have happened as described, but until I'm shown the logic behind it, I have no justification to that belief. I also have no proof of many other things, and no disproof, and I wonder why one would believe one reasonless conclusion above all the others and w/o all the others.

The two basic thoughts here are, either, everything came from nothing, or everything came from something. (I know some are going to go crazy with that one) But, if you narrow it down, that is what you have. It is cause and effect at the core, as evolution is built on, but evolution does not have a cause for its origin. But the Big Bang is the cause, right? No, the Big Bang is the effect of something. I choose to believe that everything came from Something.

[crossroad]

Im not talking about some empty universe that God was sitting around on his own in. Im talking about the birds and the trees, the mountains and lakes and of course, humans. How old are all of these? The Bible indicates an age of about 6000 years. Is this correct do you think?

I think more. But not more than 100,000. 100,000 would really be pushing it.

[doc_bean]

The two basic thoughts here are, either, everything came from nothing, or everything came from something. (I know some are going to go crazy with that one) But, if you narrow it down, that is what you have. It is cause and effect at the core, as evolution is built on, but evolution does not have a cause for its origin. But the Big Bang is the cause, right? No, the Big Bang is the effect of something. I choose to believe that everything came from Something.

But what did that Something come from then ?

If you say that Something is God, why not say that something is the universe and it has always been, possible expanding and contracting, forever and ever and ever... ?