Creation vs Evolution

[Ser Clegane]

Oh, you've not used the "how did the human eye develop without God" argument - that's another classic.

Naah ... you only missed it - see post #85

[Kralizec]

You are making the mistake of thinking that monkeys are inferior to extinct species of early humans. Monkeys are well adapted species for living in the environments where they reside. There is no objective trait that will determine what species survives natural selection, such as "being smarter" like you have mistakenly assumed.

Earlier homonids would have been proficient in tool use and maybe even communication, but if a new variant would show up that is more proficient in exactly those areas that made the older ones succesful, and provided that he survives and procreates, his descendents will graduately displace the older variants.

Monkeys didn't suffer from the same level of competition and thus lot's of monkey species remain, each well adapted to their respective environments.

[Zain]

You are making the mistake of thinking that monkeys are inferior to extinct species of early humans. Monkeys are well adapted species for living in the environments where they reside. There is no objective trait that will determine what species survives natural selection, such as "being smarter" like you have mistakenly assumed.

Earlier homonids would have been proficient in tool use and maybe even communication, but if a new variant would show up that is more proficient in exactly those areas that made the older ones succesful, and provided that he survives and procreates, his descendents will graduately displace the older variants.

Monkeys didn't suffer from the same level of competition and thus lot's of monkey species remain, each well adapted to their respective environments.

That makes sense, but wouldn't that be called a combination of natural selection and adaptation?

[rory_20_uk]

He did... the human eye!!! More "evidence"! Oh my god! The amount of research to show how eyes could evolve... At least stick to picking holes in things, such proofs are only own goals.

Zain: there are some forks, just not always forks. Two different things. Simple.

A fork is one species becoming two, no fork is one species drifting over time to become what is termed a seperate one.

Reproduction perfect ROFLMAO!!!

Infertility clinics.
it takes 20 million sperm for one egg.
the sheer number of early abortions that the mother didn't even know was a pregnancy
recurrent miscarriages
ectopic pregnancies
deaths of the mother before modern medicine
parasitic twins
conjoined twins
congenital abnormailties

Yeah, perfect... NEXT!

[rory_20_uk]

The appendix and the caecuma re extremely well developed in herbivores where it is a key part in digestion. Over time it is slowly decreasing in size as it has no / limited use and so evolutionary pressure is against it.

Rather like some snakes that have vestigial back legs.

[Zain]

The appendix and the caecuma re extremely well developed in herbivores where it is a key part in digestion. Over time it is slowly decreasing in size as it has no / limited use and so evolutionary pressure is against it.

Rather like some snakes that have vestigial back legs.

I didn't know that. That's interesting.

[Zain]

He did... the human eye!!! More "evidence"! Oh my god! The amount of research to show how eyes could evolve... At least stick to picking holes in things, such proofs are only own goals.

Zain: there are some forks, just not always forks. Two different things. Simple.

A fork is one species becoming two, no fork is one species drifting over time to become what is termed a seperate one.

Okay then, I didn't missunderstand you. Common language means a fork, like a fork in the road. That's what I imagined when I read that and it completely struck me misinterpretly.

Reproduction perfect ROFLMAO!!!

Infertility clinics.
it takes 20 million sperm for one egg.
the sheer number of early abortions that the mother didn't even know was a pregnancy
recurrent miscarriages
ectopic pregnancies
deaths of the mother before modern medicine
parasitic twins
conjoined twins
congenital abnormailties

Yeah, perfect... NEXT!

The process is perfect, you think chance could make all of those little parts and little processes work perfectly??? No! If it were chance it wouldn't be near as complicated. It would be simple, like calling in a stork or something.

[rory_20_uk]

Okay then, I didn't missunderstand you. Common language means a fork, like a fork in the road. That's what I imagined when I read that and it completely struck me misinterpretly.



The process is perfect, you think chance could make all of those little parts and little processes work perfectly??? No! If it were chance it wouldn't be near as complicated. It would be simple, like calling in a stork or something.

Zain...

It works firstly as it's had billions of years to improve the model. Amoebas replicate very simply. They divide down the middle. Easy peasy. Over time things did get more complex.

But the failsafes thrown into the system are evident in how imperfect it is. 20 MILLION sperm to fertilise one egg. Talk about wastage. And there's not a 100% chance of success that copulation will result in fertilisation. A certain time of the month is required for starters.

Oh, and you left / ignored the long list of errors that I could think of off the top of my head. ERRORS = LACK OF PERFECTION!

The argument "it's complicated so God had to have done it" only works in Church. It has evolved to the state it is, and it works well enough, even with the large numbers of errors inherent the system.

[doc_bean]

Hey creationists: explain rudimentary organs: you know like the tail bone, or some people actually being born with a tail. Why did God decided we needed a tail bone if we weren't meant to have a tail ? And why do some people have tails ?

Also, the appendix, what's it still good for ?

[Zain]

Hey creationists: explain rudimentary organs: you know like the tail bone, or some people actually being born with a tail. Why did God decided we needed a tail bone if we weren't meant to have a tail ? And why do some people have tails ?

The tail bone protects your rectum and other parts in that area from getting smashed whenever you fall on your butt. Deformities exist all the time, this one simply resembles a tail.

Also, the appendix, what's it still good for

I don't know, I'm not a doctor, and that's not my strong point. Do you know of what the appendix DID?

[Ser Clegane]

Why did God decided we needed a tail bone if we weren't meant to have a tail ?

Ahh ... that's the keyword ... no creation vs. evolution thread without chick tracts (sorry for regularly postings these ... but I am a regular aficionado, and as everything in these discussions is a repitition anyway...):

Big Daddy?

This should answer all your questions

Please note the spectacularly witty and convincing:

Even if they were "vestigial" organs, isn't losing something the opposite of evolution?

[doc_bean]

Well it seems like Rory gave a few good counterarguments to your answers to my questions (getting complicated ?). I'm not going to waste bandwidth repeating him. So it's time for some more questions !

Male nipples. What's the point ? Female nipples have a point of course, but why do men have nipples. Because that's how God created them, you think. Okay, but considering he created Man before Woman and Man had no need for nipples, then why do men still have nipples ? Did God change his mind about men and said "Let them have Nipples !" ?? It makes no sense.

Men and Dinosaurs. You still haven't answered this one. If men had always existed, did they live when there were dinosaurs ? How come there are no mentions of dinosaurs in the bible ? If it is indeed a reliable source for the early history of the world, how come it doesn't mention them ??
Are dinosaurs fake ? Then why are their bones found ? Did God put them there to test our faith ?

Cavemen. When Adam and Eve got kicked out of paradise, and had a few children, they seemed to be pretty 'civilized', I saw no mention in the bible of people living in caves, hunting to survive, etc. (okay, maybe my limited bible knowledge) What were cavemen then ?

Big Daddy?

Jesus binds atoms, hilarious !

Does anyone else find it ironic that he says gluons are not real since no one has actually seen them ? Anyone seen God lately ?

Also, the kid is referring to an old pre-quantum physics model (Rutherford ? or even Bohr ?) when he makes the planetary comparison.

[Zain]

Male nipples. What's the point ? Female nipples have a point of course, but why do men have nipples. Because that's how God created them, you think. Okay, but considering he created Man before Woman and Man had no need for nipples, then why do men still have nipples ? Did God change his mind about men and said "Let them have Nipples !" ?? It makes no sense.

I guess it's like hair, what's the point of hair being on your head? To protect your head from getting burned by the sun. But, what about your shoulders, they have no significant hair. I guess the nipples are there simply for filling up space, but that's something I've never had to contimplate. Oh, the connection between hair and nipple, hair is there to fill up space, make everyone look different, possibly the nipple is simply there to fill up space. Don't you think we would look strange without them?

Men and Dinosaurs. You still haven't answered this one. If men had always existed, did they live when there were dinosaurs ? How come there are no mentions of dinosaurs in the bible ? If it is indeed a reliable source for the early history of the world, how come it doesn't mention them ??
Are dinosaurs fake ? Then why are their bones found ? Did God put them there to test our faith ?

A Leviathan, which is considered a dinosaur, is mentioned in the books of Job, Psalm, and Isaiah. The Behemoth, is mentioned in the book of Job. Humans and Dinosaurs lived at the same time, otherwise Creation would be false.

Cavemen. When Adam and Eve got kicked out of paradise, and had a few children, they seemed to be pretty 'civilized', I saw no mention in the bible of people living in caves, hunting to survive, etc. (okay, maybe my limited bible knowledge) What were cavemen then ?

I don't think that they were very civilized after Adam and Eve. They could very easily have spread out over the land after some reproduction and began to live like cavemen, but I don't know entirely.

[doc_bean]

I guess it's like hair, what's the point of hair being on your head? To protect your head from getting burned by the sun. But, what about your shoulders, they have no significant hair. I guess the nipples are there simply for filling up space, but that's something I've never had to contimplate. Oh, the connection between hair and nipple, hair is there to fill up space, make everyone look different, possibly the nipple is simply there to fill up space. Don't you think we would look strange without them?

Of course not, not if no man had nipples, than we would laugh at the idea of a man having nipples.

A Leviathan, which is considered a dinosaur, is mentioned in the books of Job, Psalm, and Isaiah. The Behemoth, is mentioned in the book of Job. Humans and Dinosaurs lived at the same time, otherwise Creation would be false.

So there musn't have been a lot of dinosaurs around back then, right, otherwise they would have been mentioned a bit more don't you think ? After all, giant carnivores tend to be the kind of thing that you mention in a book about your history....
Fossil findings would indicate the existence of a lot more dinosaurs then there seem to be mentioned in the bible though. Also, why didn't they get a ride on the ark ?

[Zain]

Of course not, not if no man had nipples, than we would laugh at the idea of a man having nipples.

Haha, true. I don't know the answer then, besides God did it because he wanted to.

So there musn't have been a lot of dinosaurs around back then, right, otherwise they would have been mentioned a bit more don't you think ? After all, giant carnivores tend to be the kind of thing that you mention in a book about your history....
Fossil findings would indicate the existence of a lot more dinosaurs then there seem to be mentioned in the bible though. Also, why didn't they get a ride on the ark ?

I honestly believed that the humans wiped out the dinosaurs that are extinct because they were a huge threat. You've got the carnivores, who will eat you. Kill them off and save your hide. You've got the omnivores, who will eat all of the vegetation all around. Kill them off and get some food. I that possibly the extinct ones all died out before the flood. Don't you think that with the Earth completely covered in water that that would cover up these carcasus with multiple layers and explain the huge dating on these fossils? It's a thought. Or maybe some of the living dinosaurs did get a ride on the ark, which would explain crocodiles still being around.