Creation vs Evolution

[crossroad]

Zain, this is very patronising, but you are very young. It's good to see that you are thinking about things. No one has all the answers, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't ask the questions.

The world is full of omnivores and carnivores. Sure, the dinosaurs were too, but there is no evidence man killed them.

Wooly Mammoths and sabre toothed tigres on the other hand had intimate knowledge of man - we killed lots of one and were sometimes the dinner of the other. There are human bones with scars from sabre tooth tigers for example.

The earth covered with water. Where did it all come from? Where did it all go? And in 40 days remember!

A boat with the capacity for all that food??!?

Fossils are not dated by the depth that they are buried. The exact method depends, but the radioactive decay or carbon or the Argon / Potassium ratio is usually used. Fossils can be on the surface or miles underground. These values are not altered by much except time.

Crocodiles are not dinosaurs. They lived at the same time, but they are not the same. Different bone structure for example.

The most common question asked about the validity of Noah's ark is, "How could millions of different animals fit on one small boat?"

First, there were not millions of animals. Not every "kind" of animal was needed to be on board. According to the Biblical text., neither insects nor amphibians would have been taken on board. Only those animals which could not have survived a year long flood needed to be on board. Furthermore, every minor variation of animal (species) was not present. Wolves, foxes, coyote, and dogs could have come from an original dog kind.
Making the generous assumption that the average animal size is as large as a sheep, and between 2 and 7 of each kind of animal were taken, 16,000 sheep-size animals, at the most, would have been on board. This number could have been as low as 2000 if the Biblical "kind" is equivalent to the family level of modern animal classification. These numbers include every known living and extinct type of mammal, bird, amphibian, and reptile.
This was no small boat. Noah and his family had over 100 years to construct a vessel longer that a football field and three stories high. The total space available was equivalent to 522 railroad stock cars. A stock car holds 240 sheep so the ark could have held 125,000 animals.
At most, only 40% of the total space was needed for all of the animals! The remainder would be used for food and storage.
The account of Noah's flood is similar to many other Biblical stories. They make perfect sense if you assume they mean exactly what they say and take time to study them carefully.
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=28[

[rory_20_uk]

The most common question asked about the validity of Noah's ark is, "How could millions of different animals fit on one small boat?"

First, there were not millions of animals. Not every "kind" of animal was needed to be on board. According to the Biblical text., neither insects nor amphibians would have been taken on board. Only those animals which could not have survived a year long flood needed to be on board. Furthermore, every minor variation of animal (species) was not present. Wolves, foxes, coyote, and dogs could have come from an original dog kind.
Making the generous assumption that the average animal size is as large as a sheep, and between 2 and 7 of each kind of animal were taken, 16,000 sheep-size animals, at the most, would have been on board. This number could have been as low as 2000 if the Biblical "kind" is equivalent to the family level of modern animal classification. These numbers include every known living and extinct type of mammal, bird, amphibian, and reptile.
This was no small boat. Noah and his family had over 100 years to construct a vessel longer that a football field and three stories high. The total space available was equivalent to 522 railroad stock cars. A stock car holds 240 sheep so the ark could have held 125,000 animals.
At most, only 40% of the total space was needed for all of the animals! The remainder would be used for food and storage.
The account of Noah's flood is similar to many other Biblical stories. They make perfect sense if you assume they mean exactly what they say and take time to study them carefully.
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=28[

OK. Amphibians can't survive a year without any land. They require land as they are semi terrestrial. Insects can't survive either. Housefly: 2 weeks. mayfly: 1 day.

So, cyotes, foxes, wolves all came from the same animal. How? I'd say they evolved.

The assumptions that you make in that all animals can be placed in boxes for a year is risable. Many species need domains which are miles in size. They'll go mad (literally) in a box.

100 years to construct a boat. Of wood. The bottom wood not at all affected by the weight, nor rot. LOL

And then: food. Herbivores eat can eat masses of food. Carnivores eat meat - and generally fresh meat as well. fresh meat that lasts for a year...

They make perfect sense if you set out to find them correct. They are obviously fables if one just thinks logically about the details.

Where does micro-evolution end and macro evolution begin? Surely it is all a question of the length of time that it is measured over.

[crossroad]

First let me say, what you read was part of the actual article. I put the link at the bottom but did not mean to plagiarize.

OK. Amphibians can't survive a year without any land. They require land as they are semi terrestrial. Insects can't survive either. Housefly: 2 weeks. mayfly: 1 day.

I'm sure most of the Amphibians did die, along with the dryland animals that did not make it on the ark. My theory is that there was some sort of moonpool in the middle of the ark. Whether it accomidated Amphibians or not, I don't know. I think most insects would have been wiped out as well, but the massive amount of debris that would have been floating, scattered around the world would have saved a small remnant. For all we know, half the worlds "kinds" of animals might have went extinct because of the flood. Remember, God can do what he wants to. But I think the data we have does a fair job showing how Noah's ark could have happened. Also, the bible does not say the earth was under water for a whole year. Parts of the earth would have been drying up much earlier, tops of mountains would have quickly been a refuge for some creatures that did not make it on the ark.

So, cyotes, foxes, wolves all came from the same animal. How?

If we go with the idea that Noah took only one kind, then the answer is yes. The bible did not list which animals he took.

The assumptions that you make in that all animals can be placed in boxes for a year is risable. Many species need domains which are miles in size. They'll go mad (literally) in a box.

I made no assumptions that they were placed in boxes (don't make me call you a hillbilly evolutionist) but God did tell Noah to build rooms in it. We don't know how big these room were. Noah did not have to go out and round any animals up. They filed in as if God himself had his hand on them leading them. We don't know if they were in their own little cages, or if they roamed free on the ark. Either way, God was in control of everything.

100 years to construct a boat. Of wood. The bottom wood not at all affected by the weight, nor rot. LOL

God told Noah to line it with pitch. It would not have rotted. As far as the weight is concerned, big boats often haul heavy loads. Noah would have had to use giant logs from trees making the ark extremely stout. And wood floats!!! Like you said, a 100 year construction.

And then: food. Herbivores eat can eat masses of food. Carnivores eat meat - and generally fresh meat as well. fresh meat that lasts for a year...

Noah was instructed to take two of every kind of unclean animal and seven of every kind of clean animal. I think the extra animals were actually food for the meat eaters. Sounds harsh, but this was a devistating time in earths history. Plus animals would have been born - a small "circle of life" for any of you Elton John fans. I know this brings up questions about lions hunting on the ark, or rattle snakes striking those that came to close, but as I said before, there would not have been chaos, God was in control.

Where does micro-evolution end and macro evolution begin? Surely it is all a question of the length of time that it is measured over.

micro-evolution never ends.
macro-evolution never begins.
There can be changes within the species, but never changes to different species.

Great questions rory thanks!

[Tribesman]

Hmmmm...crossroad contradicts himself

The bible did not list which animals he took.

Noah was instructed to take two of every kind of unclean animal and seven of every kind of clean animal.


My theory is that there was some sort of moonpool in the middle of the ark.
yep that would look nice , in conjunction with the greenhouse .

God told Noah to line it with pitch.
Ah , Pitch , now what pitch would this be ?

As far as the weight is concerned, big boats often haul heavy loads. Noah would have had to use giant logs from trees making the ark extremely stout. And wood floats!!!
So you not only do not understand scientific theories , you don't understand maritime engineering .
Remember, God can do what he wants to
They filed in as if God himself had his hand on them leading them.
God was in control of everything.
God was in control.
oh look , everytime it looks like you are talking bollox ....God did it
Also, the bible does not say the earth was under water for a whole year.
doesn't it ?

First let me say, what you read was part of the actual article. I put the link at the bottom but did not mean to plagiarize.

You don't mean to say that you are just repeating the rubbish from those sites you linked , what a surprise .

Any thoughts on the rainbow yet

[rory_20_uk]

I'm in many ways a lot happier when theories rely on God doing everything, as logical argument gives up at that point. Why did God not just vanish the bad people unstead of flooding the world? Meh, he just did. Bad mood, change of scenery, wanted Noah to learn carpentry - who knows?

Again, there is the other thought that God appears to have been very active during those days with all the slaughter and havoc he was causing personally - and in many cases to show how butch he was. And then suddenly he stopped. Why? Again perhaps he just is having a break - logical argument is not applicable.

So. On the Ark all animals which require a habitat of many square miles (and hence my "box" analagy - ANY enclosure would be too small for some of the hunters) didn't for the time of the flood. Maybe the animals stopped eating / defacating. Maybe God made the trees float better and made them stronger.

But in such a context there is no need to try to lather pseudoscience round the place. Just say God did it all, and modern rules just don't apply.

I'm agnostic, so I'm happy with that. There's no evidence that reliably dates from the time, so who knows?

[InsaneApache]

So if the whole world was flooded, all of it, to the top of Everest, how did they breathe in the oxygen deficient atmosphere. Or did God provide some spare spacesuits along with this (first time I've heard this one ) 'moonpool'.

Talk about make it up as you go along.

[doc_bean]

So if the whole world was flooded, all of it, to the top of Everest, how did they breathe in the oxygen deficient atmosphere. Or did God provide some spare spacesuits along with this (first time I've heard this one ) 'moonpool'.

Talk about make it up as you go along.

Algae are responsible for 30-50% of the oxygen production iirc, and you'd have a lot less users due to every animal not on the ark getting killed....

What am I doing here, defending the creationists ? I need to get out of here !!!

[crossroad]

Thanks rory, for the dialog. It seems like you are actually conversing instead of spouting like some.

I'm in many ways a lot happier when theories rely on God doing everything, as logical argument gives up at that point. Why did God not just vanish the bad people unstead of flooding the world? Meh, he just did. Bad mood, change of scenery, wanted Noah to learn carpentry - who knows?

Again, there is the other thought that God appears to have been very active during those days with all the slaughter and havoc he was causing personally - and in many cases to show how butch he was. And then suddenly he stopped. Why? Again perhaps he just is having a break - logical argument is not applicable.

Slaughter and havoc. That one has always bothered me, but let me take a stab at it (no pun intended). Modern preachers/teachers have painted God as an all loving God with outstretched arms waiting for his children to come running into his arms. Though this is true, it is not a complete description. God is also a just God. He can be disappointed and angry, which many criticize and question his "perfection". But having emotion does not disprove perfection. A father can not be the perfect if he does not become disappointed and punish his children from time to time. A husband can not be a perfect husband if he is not happy to see his wife. So, why did God wipe out entire groups of people? The biblical answers are often - they were immoral, they were heathens. Sometime it seemed like they were just in the way, hence the reason I said this one has always bothered me. But, I also believe in the sovereignty of God. He knows best. If he thought the world needed to be wiped out with a flood then it should have been wiped out. As to why He's not as active now, He is just as active now as He was then. The difference is that in those days He worked on a broad scale, now He works individually. With the coming of Jesus and "New Testament", God changed the way He deals with His people. Now it’s on a personal level, which I'm sure is way on the other end of the spectrum if you are an agnostic. But countless lives have been changed, miracles documented. Not that He does not work on a broad scale, ever, but the focus here is that through all the havoc in bringing the human race to this point, and the coming of Jesus, now we see a great movement of God in the lives of people.

So. On the Ark all animals which require a habitat of many square miles (and hence my "box" analagy - ANY enclosure would be too small for some of the hunters) didn't for the time of the flood. Maybe the animals stopped eating / defacating. Maybe God made the trees float better and made them stronger.

But in such a context there is no need to try to lather pseudoscience round the place. Just say God did it all, and modern rules just don't apply.

I'm agnostic, so I'm happy with that. There's no evidence that reliably dates from the time, so who knows?

As far a habitat and space goes. Zoo's do it all the time. I realize zoo's give a little more space, but there are other places that stick animals like lions and tigers in cages for most of their lives (sad and cruel, but it happens). I think the majority of these animals would have been very young. Besides taking less space and needing less food, it would have given each kind of animal a greater opportunity to multiply when the reached dry land.

BTW, I'm an agnostic too (concerning space aliens)

[rory_20_uk]

Phrases such as God making the Pharoh stubborn so he could visit plagues on him makes me think that he is far from perfect. Saying that "god knows best" is a complete whitewash, and is in the best traditions of the Inquisition, as one has then stopped thinking at all, even when faced with problems.

You say he is as active now as he was then, although all evidence clearly points to the opposite. The odd documented miracle hardly suffices.

As a doctor one thing that really annoys me is this:

Something goes well. People thank God for it all.
Something goes badly. People question / rant at the doctors.

We did all the work to make people better. If in spite of this they died clearly they should be asking God for answers, not man.

Zoos do lock up animals. They frequently go mad in under a year.
Young often have increased needs for food due to the speed they are growing at.

Worrying about algae supplying oxygen is pointless. If God can flood the planet then there is no need to try to use fragments of science to make this so. Just blanket the whole issue with "god worked it out, OK?"

The animals were placed in suspended animation for a year, after God teleported them to their cubicals.

See? Much simpler with trying to shoehorn science to fit the facts.