See Naples and die!!

[King Kurt]

I am anticipating starting a new MTW/VI campaign in the next week or two and I thought that it would be good to share a few decision making decisions with my friends on these boards.
I intend to play with the Sicilians - I have never played with them before and they look intersting. I have also decided to start in the High period, as opposed to early as my previous campaigns - all early - have finished not long after I have got into the high period, so I have never had to deal with the High troop types and things like gunpowder. In fact my last Byzantine campaign I achieved 100% domination before the Horde arrived!! - so I fancy a change of scene. Finally I will, as always, play GA.
The Sicilian high start is interesting - you own Malta, Sicily and Naples. Malta is well developed - you can raise pavaise xbow, halberdiers and mtd sargents from day 1, while Sicily and Naples are resonable as well. All 3 provinces can build fleets. You have the normal collection of troops - spears, UMs, peasants with some feudal knights and, of course, some RKs with the king. The king deserves a special mention as he is an 8 star Jedi so that is a nice little perk to kick off with.
So - 2 topics for discussion:
Hard or expert? - I have played the last few games on hard, so expert might add a little challenge, what do people think?
What should my overall strategy be? My inclination is to play as a King building a merchant empire. I will not looking to blitzkreig over surrounding factions but instead will concentrate on building my trade and looking to conquer provinces with good trade goods. My initial attention is drawn towards North Africa, Egypt and into the Holy Land - plenty of healthy trade provinces etc. A bit of conquest coupled with crusading looks good.
So - a few comments please - and I promise to keep you all informed on what happens.

[matteus the inbred]

I like Sicily, nice and simple to start with, loads of options! I have found that a bit of conquest in North Africa (Tunisia/Cyrenacia and then on to Egypt) coupled with lots of crusading (thus hitting the Egyptians from two fronts) can quickly give you the southern and eastern Mediterranean provinces, lots of ships and a nice line in trading. Sicily is probably the best placed crusading faction; it's only a short sea hop from Malta to Outremer, you need lots of ships anyway, and your income will be mainly trade-based at first.
Snatch Naples if you want, probably better to wait and see if it revolts and then take it from the rebels rather than directly from the Byz, cos you can trade with them and having them sink your ships mid-crusade is very annoying. Same with Rhodes, Crete and Malta; cut them off with ships and snatch them if they rebel. If you think your empire's up to it, kick off with the Byz full on and grab Greece and Constantinople asap, preferably while the Byz are fighting the Turks or Hungarians. I have yet to take a Sicilian game all the way to the endgame, but smacking the Italians about seems logical, they're going to be your main competitors later on. Keep building ships though, all the time, and use lots of mercs as well so you can drop an instant army on anyone who deserves it.
It's probably unwise to attack the Pope though, you need him friendly. Eventually the Italians will probably attack him and get ex-comm'd, at which point you can righteously bury them.

Good luck, I shall follow with interest however you do it...

[Martok]

King Kurt: What's funny is that I myself just started a Sicilian game last night (Early/Normal/GA mode/XL Mod).

Things have started out well enough. I naturally took Naples from the Byzantines early on. We have since been at peace with each other, however, and are actually allies now. Several years after that, I wound up attacking the Serbians (who themselves had attacked my allies the Hungarians). I wiped them out in short order, gaining both Serbia and Croatia. In gratitude, the Hungarians gave no less than three of their daughters to my princes (2 sons and 1 brother). Go me! Sadly, Roger I died during the war with the Serbians, but his son Roger II has done an adequate--if unspectacular--job of ruling his people.

That was about 10 years ago. Since then, I've been steadily building up my navy and expanding my trade network. Thus far, I only have ships extending east to the Holy Land and the Black Sea; and am only now beginning to call on ports west of Sicily. Fortunately, however, I now have three provinces (Sicily, Naples, and Croatia) doing nothing but cranking out ships; so my fleet will soon see a rapid increase in strength. Thus far, everything has gone well.

There are dark clouds on the horizon, however. Against all odds, the Seljuks have led their fellow Turks in a startling rise to power. Around the time that I finished off the Serbians, the Sultan began his war against the Fatamids. As I write this account, he has the their last province (Lesser Armenia) under siege; the Egyptians' doom is all but inevitable. The moment Lesser Armenia falls, the Turks will have Egypt and the Holy Lands in their grip.

Worse is to come, as I don't believe the Seljuks are content with the Fatamids' demise. Already my agents have noticed the Saracens are beginning to marshall their forces along their border with the Byzantines, and I fear my new friends will soon have far more to worry about than Cumans raiding their frontier-lands. Even worse, Alexios is no longer a young man, and I suspect he is not long for this world. It's fortunate he has fine sons that are all worthy of succeeding him, but his loss will still be a hard blow for the Empire.

Watching these events unfold, I've decided I cannot stand idly by and watch the Greeks fight the rising tide alone; I must help in some way. In this, I have been inspired by the governor of Malta. While admittedly not the most loyal of men, he *is* fervent in his devotion to God, as well as being fairly ambitious. He has suggested that instead of sending men to aid the Byzantines directly, that I instead take up the Pope's call to seize the Holy Lands from the infedel. While I am naturally suspicious of his motives, I cannot deny the idea has tremendous appeal.

Thus, I have decided to launch a Crusade against the Seljuks! My brother, who has chaffed performing garrison duty in Croatia, has practically begged me to lead the expedition. After due consideration, I have agreed he should have command. He is a man of strong faith, and will keep the army in sight of their overall goal. My elder son has requested to go with as well, although I suspect his desire has more to do with him wanting to accompany his favorite (albeit only) uncle than for any religiously-motivated reasons. While I'm reluctant to let him go, I cannot deny he could use some practical battlefield experience.

Now all I must do is sweep the nascant Turkish navy from the eastern Mediterranean. I should be able to accomplish this without great difficulty, but it does mean I'll have to divert some of my newly-constructed ships to reinforce my fleet that will be accompanying this "Crusade". I hate to slow down the establishment of my maritime trading empire, but I have little choice at the moment. A great adventure awaits me and my people!

[King Kurt]

Martok

Nice start. I see you have not followed the normal early Sicilian start - a la guides - of grabbbing bits of Northern Italy. The balkans is another route and it is interesting to see that you have taken some land, but are not threatened - presumably the Byzantines are looking for help, not revenge for the loss of Naples.
2 questions
1) how is your trade - must be strong now I would think.
2) Any sign of these good kings/ princes yet? - i am looking forward to begining a campaign with an 8 star King - must try not to get him killed!!

[Martok]

Thanks King Kurt. No, I haven't followed the "typical" Sicilian strategy, although that's due more to me roleplaying my faction than to any overall plan I actually had. The only difference is that I wanted to see how the Sicilians would fair being the "good guys" for once, instead of the total bastards that they usually are when played by the AI. In the case of my going to war with the Serbs, that was simply retaliation for having attacked the Hungarians. The fact that I acquired two valuable provinces in the process was simply a nice side benefit.

With the Byzantines, yeah I don't think they're overly upset over the loss of Naples. First off, it was a fairly long time ago (I grabbed in the first five years of play, and it's now 1124). Secondly, I think they were hoping I'd back them up should the Cumans start to become a pain. (I suspect this is also the reason the Hungarians initially allied with me; the Cumans have been harrassing both factions.) Of course, the Turks have suddenly now become a much bigger threat to the Empire; and I suspect they'll be quite pleased to see my troops sieze Antioch. If I don't take down the Turks now, I have a feeling they're going to be very difficult to stop. Nothing like enlighted self-interest to make this game interesting!

In answer to your questions, Kurt:

1.) My trade is still pretty modest at the moment (total income after expenses is currently 2500 florins/year), but it should start seeing a big increase now that my ship production has swung into high gear. Even with sending additional forces east to destroy the Turks' fleet, I've still been able to start deploying ships into the western Med. Soon, my trade network will extend to the Straits of Gibraltar (and hopefully beyond!).

2.) Unfortunately, none of my royals have been anything to write home about, at least until recently. Roger I was a good king, but hardly a standout; likewise, his son Roger II is also decent but nothing special. The younger Roger's brother and eldest son (forget their names) downright stink--between the two of them, they have 6 loyalty, 7 piety, 5 dread, 3 command, and 1 acumen. I hate to have those two nitwits leading the Crusade I'm preparing, but I have little other choice right now. However, my younger son (Angus, I think?), who just recently came of age, has some pretty good stats (6/7/4/6/4). I don't know if I've turned the corner on heirs yet or not; but I have 3 more sons still to come of age, so I'm hopeful.

I haven't played since my last post, but am definitely planning on getting some time in this evening when I get home from work. I'll let you know how it goes!

[Roark]

Love the Sicilians' campaign.

I usually start with a spree of sea-borne crusades and convert into a high-tech merchant empire, focussing on quality troops (rather than quantity).

It's often a good idea to cripple the Italians nice and early (by sacking or occupying Venice and Tuscany), just to control the numbers of those pesky dromons.

[King Kurt]

Well, I have started and I am finding it more difficult than I expected. I think I got my begining strategy a little wrong. I started building a good army - so many nice new troop types available from day 1. I also started on my navy to kick off the trade. I think I rushed it a bit and overstretched myself. To top it all, the Pope tried to steal Naples, but I kicked him out. I had been building towards invading Tunisia with a Crusade building behind it. I had brought some nice mercs, put 2 fleets on the Almo fleet and promptly lost! That left me a bit high and dry - I went into insufficient funds and needed to break the cycle. I couldn't invade anywhere and I couldn't build any more ships to trade myself out. So I did some housekeeping, paring some forces - and then the Pope invaded Naples again. I fought the defence out - nearly killed the Pope - his unit was down to 1 man!!! - but my general got himself killed and despite hanging on for a bit more, my army broke. Next turn, I invaded Naples to lift the seige and invaded Rome as well. Pope retreats in both. I am excommed without warning. I pursue and about 3 years later I have wiped the Pope off the face of the map.
Elsewhere the Byzants had a civil war - during which I missed an opportunity to take Greece - Italy beat me by a year. Italy has prospered from this and has taken Contaninople and a few other Byzant lands.
It is now 1230 - don't forget I started in 1205 - the Horde have arrived and I have just defeated the Pope - so time for some thoughts on what next.
The Pope will come back I assume in about 10 - 15 years - I am tempted to slash and burn all but the castles in both provinces so he doesn't come back with much - an alternative is to leave happy and economic buildings - I will keep smallish garrisons with my main force in Naples. Any comments/ ideas on how to deal with the inevitable reappearance?
The other question is which wider strategy - attack the Italians, who I will assume will have some problems with the Horde/ Turks soon or stick to building a trade empire and taking the north coast of Africa/ Egypt with forces/ Crusades etc.
I feel nicely poised - it felt touch and go in my brief savage war with the Pope and if Italy and intervened I think it would have been curtains - but, after a brief interlude to build some fleets, regroup my armies and develop my agents - I already have a nice 3 star assasin active in Northen Italy - it will be time for King Aed - my 8 star Jedi - to look for new activities.

[Vladimir]

Use the re-emergences to groom your heirs. Just make sure you have at least a whole army within striking distance of Rome. Bring plenty of horses kill the Pope at all costs! After that it’s easy to get all those 0 valor troops to run and you’ll need the horses. Butcher virtue here I come.

[King Kurt]

By the way - does anybody know if the Pope keeps coming back?

[Deus ret.]

oh yes he does. you might indeed overcome the first reappearance; if he is vanquished anew, he'll soon turn up again, this time with a much larger force; but even if you manage to hack yourself through this throng of troops, the situation won't be quiet for long since the Pope, like some kind of annoying ghost, is doomed to re-appear eternally, each time with more minions around him.

(just FYI, I somehow also quelled the third re-appearance in due time, laying my economy and the number of my capable generals to ruins in the process, only to witness a fourth appearance somewhat later when I had just begun to recover from the losses of the third. and this fourth reappearance....the province space on the camp map was absolutely crammed with full stacks and still more seemed to be there. The Horde was a pathetic bunch of scattered troops compared to this onslaught. I finally gave up in the face of this one, since it had become late period by then and the Pope's troops, innumerable as they were, had enjoyed a sizeable quality bonus with the change of the periods.....after that campaign (which I had already won anyway) I reached the conclusion that it's best to conquer Rome and let the Pope and the rest of his troops starve in the Papal States. Believe me...)

edit: thinking of it, Vladimir's method seems to be a good way to get rid of this bothering Pope. Park a good army with a capable general in Rome and kill the Pope who will inevitably be in the first wave in their attack, when there are still 16 vs 16 units on the field. as long as they appear in no other region than Rome (which never happened in my experience), they will immediately perish again after the battle.

[Mithrandir]

It'd be cheaper to just assasinate him time and time again I think...

[Vladimir]

Aww, but then you don't have the thrill of crushing the Papist menace. As the Venetians I've kept the Pope in Check for 100's of years. Just don't station a large amount of troops in Rome or the Papal states and his army won't be more than 3-4,000. I've also noticed that in the later years the reemergences don't keep pace with technology. Just don't build any military improvements there and you'll be fine. Stick to economic and administrative improvements and you'll be fine. It hardly ever rains in Rome and there are some decent hills for defense, but your poor horses will get a workout.

Edit: It's also a good way to "force" an assault once you've built up your fortress. Loads of fun.

[The Wizard]

Build fleets, many great fleets. Just like in history, Sicily's dominance relies on its control of the seas. Make sure neither the Italians nor the Byzantines are a danger, and lord it over anyone who dares to oppose that thought.

As far as conquest goes, Sicily is best suited to using your naval dominance to grab whatever good province you can if a good opportunity presents itself. From these beginnings on the mainland you can start expanding your empire. If it fails you can always retreat and fall back onto your fleet.

In conclusion: rely on your position geographically. Dominate the seas, and think from that point of view. So long as Sicily can cut the Mediterranean in two it can't lose.

[Martok]

King Kurt: My advice? Wipe out the Italians, and any other Catholic faction that's irritating you. Since the Pope's dead, you can't be excommunicated; and you can't Crusade, so you might as well use this time to make war on your fellow Catholics.


Things have taken an interesting turn in my Sicilian campaign. I was almost ready to launch my Crusade to Palestine, when two extraordinary things happened:

1.) The Byzantines actually rode to the Fatamids' aid in Lesser Armenia and raised the siege!
2.) Immediately following their defeat by the combined Byz/Eggie army, the Seljuks fell into civil war.

As a result of this, the map of the Levant has been suddenly and radically redrawn. My Crusades to both Palestine and Tripoli were successful, and Roger II has suddenly made a name for himself among the great leaders of Europe and the Near East (he's at 9 Influence now; woot!). The Seljuks still have Egypt, Sanai, Rum, and (ironically enough) Lesser Armenia--a loyalist rebellion drove out the Fatamids. With the exception of Lesser Armenia, many of the Seljuk-occupied territories have returned to the Fatamids' rule; the Eggies now hold Edessa, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Arabia.

Finally, in a surprising show of aggression, the Byzantines siezed both Antioch and Armenia (from the Turks). Sadly, this campaign turned out to be Alexios Comnenus' last, as he died 2 years later. The Sicilians joined their Orthodox brothers in mourning his passing; he was truly a great man, and left the Empire stronger and in a better position than when he first took the throne. The Greeks are now led by Alexios II, and he shows every indication of being just as able a leader as his father was.

I look forward to working with him in the years that are to come, as there is still much work to do. The Turks have been dealt a great loss, yes; but they are hardly destroyed. With Egypt and Rum in their hands, they can easily begin amassing wealth with which they can rebuild their army. My navy is already patrolling the eastern Med in force, and am sinking any of their ships that leave harbor, but it is not enough. I have begun preparing an invasion of Egypt and the Sanai peninsula....

[ajaxfetish]

If you want to sit back and develop more than go on a conquest spree, go for tuscany if you haven't got it yet. It's got iron deposits, so as you tech up your nice fancy Italian troops you can give them nice fancy weapons to match.

Ajax

[King Kurt]

Disaster!! I started building up my navy and forces but it was taking some time as coffers were low. I did get a nice assasin going who was up to valour 4. Then, despite my efforts to minimise it - no military buildings other than the castles, low garrisons - the Pope came back big time. 4 stacks in Rome, 3 stacks in the papal states, all CMAA or FMAA with xbows, RKs etc. I defended with my weak forces so I could retreat into the castles - that worked well. Then civil war broke out!! so my hope of attacking him when he had been weakened by the castle assaults was ruined as my forces were reduced by at least a third. The castle assaults did wear him down - he lost over 500 men in one - but I had no real forces to resist him so after 3-4 years resistance , the Pope wiped me out. In hindsight, I started wrong and had tempted the Pope to invade by leaving the Naples garrison too weak.

So, with that knowledge, I have started again!! This time I have kept a stronger garrison in Naples and have invaded greece with my King and all the spare troops I could muster. That went well, so I have pushed on - the port in Greece got destroyed in my conquest so I need a port for communication back top base for my king - and have taken Constantinopole!! Not bad for under the first 10 years. I have raised some cash and have a magnificent base in Constantinopole - teched up to CMAA and wargallies already. The next few years might be tricky, but I think I can pull it together. I will concentrate on building boats to link my new empire, make peace/ alliances with as many as possible and look to slowly expand my empire once the trade revenue starts building. My worry is that the Horde are relatively not far away, but there still seems to be some buffer states in the way who can wear them down.

[King Kurt]

Just had a rare weekend by myself - so I managed to play 100 years of my current campaign. Initially all went well, I consoladated around Constantinopole, adding Bulgaria and Serbia and built up my trade and managed to grab Antioch and Tripoli with a Crusade. Then, disaster, the Italians declared war on me and their large amounts of fleets switched off all my trade income. My monies got into a bad way very quickly - insufficient funds, increasing debt. I was attacked in Naples by the Pope - this provided a diversion - in the War I managed to capture the Pope twice and the 20,000 florins helped the finances a bit. When my plight in Italy became too bad, I slash and burned my home provinces, gathered what I had left together and went on a cut and burn trip round the Italian peninsula, leveling Papal States, Venice and Tuscany. I had the Pope cornered in Rome, when the Italians came to his aid and that ended my Italian adventure. My pseudo Bysant empire was OK, but in debt and in negative income. I thought of quitting, but I did a load of housekeeping and got out of debt. About the same time I married off a Princess to the Horde which cemented a strong alliance, so while my neighbours were in a great struggle, I was left alone. There then followed a period of turtling while I built up everything. Then the Horde collapsed into civil war, enabling me to pick up some more Balkan and Asia Minor provinces. I replaced the Horde with England as my main ally - they were now the strongest faction - and my trade network was reestablished. All was not too bad, but, as I was playing GA, I needed my homelands back. I couldn't see me getting back to them as the Italians were so strong, especially at sea. I tried a bit of skullduggery - assasins etc - but no joy. Then - they collapsed - the Doge died, no hiers. This meant all the fleets disappeared. I moved swiftly taking by force and bribery Sciliy and Naples, then quickly added Papal States, Venice, Tuscany, Milan, Corsica and Sardina by the same way. So, after twice thinking about quitting I am in good nick - it is 1315, I have a good income and strong empire - I am 4th on GA points and my next moves will be to attack them in order. Playing a small nation is interesting - you go through periods of calm, great crisises and it is all a bit of a rollercoaster. You can also watch the major powers slugging it out while you quietly pick up the scraps. The thing I have learnt is that you must have strong alliances, especially with the top dog and that you must think medium term, building to a careful strategy with key provinces in mind. Finally, be prepared to grab opportunities when they appear. This means taking risks, but they can pay off big time.

[Deus ret.]

it is 1315, I have a good income and strong empire - I am 4th on GA points and my next moves will be to attack them in order.

You are well advised to do so, you might even want to snatch away the 5th and 6th ranking factions depending on the edge you have over them - because IIRC once the clock hits 1321 there are no more homelands for the Sicilians since historically the Aragonese overtook the island in 1282....hey wait, your homelands should already have disappeared by now?
anyway, good luck in winning!

[King Kurt]

That explains why only Malta is mentioned - I thought it was because that was all I had! I never realised that GA points changed over the years, so I have leant something new today.

[gaijinalways]

Yes, the GA campaigns are a different race than the total conquests. I am also enjoying my English GA campaign, as I ravage the Byz countryside, though it is tough going, Kats and all. Getting good allies is tough, especially a lot of the AI factions tend to be 'fair weather' allies. I have also had a few factions refuse to kiss and make up, instead forcing my allies to show their allegiance elsewhere .

[Sensei Warrior]

AI Faction stink. Oh look I'm your friend and blah blah blah. Then when you are just about to take your last Crusading provence and can sit and regroup for a bit. BANG all of the sudden on the other side of the world, a couple of faction gets there knickers in a twist and try and whack you, grr .

All I wanted was a few friends, but no, they gotta be mean. And to top it all off they'll sit there with their 2 spearmen staring at your 4 stacks, and they'll tell your emmisary to stick it when he tries to get a ceasefire going.

AHEM, sorry bout that I had to get that outta my system.

[King Kurt]

The rollercoaster contnues. I had decided that my next target would be the English - everybody was picking on them and they had been excommed as well - I was a little wary as they had loads of fleets, but I took a little naval advice - see contemplating my naval - and decided to go for it. I sent out loads of emisaries to make alliances - I had been asked by loads to become partners, but had been saying no due to my alliance with the English - started pumping fleets from every possible base, declared a crusade against Edessa (held by the English after a crusade) and attacked Genoa as well - another English province. Initially all went well, the fleets exchanges were about even, trade was not too badly affected and several people allied to me. Then for some reason, after existing in peace for over 100 years, the Hungarians attacked me in Serbia with a silly little force. I beat him back, but the border skirmishes continued. Because all my new allies were allies with Hungary - who had also allied with me the year before they invaded!! - they all deserted me and started attacking. The Spanish attacked Milan - and were thrown back. The russians attacked - even the Pope attacked me in the Papal States - I chickened out there and abandoned the province. During all this nobody gets excommed - not even the Spanish who are at least as big as me. Then something strange happened. My crusade to Edessa was sucessful. I left a garrison and moved the rest of the force to invade Kazar etc as the Russians are next on my list. The Spanish own Rum and Anatolia - both Crusade taken. They decide to invade Edessa. I only have a small garrrison and decide to abandon the province. This means losing a crusade gained province - normaly a bit of a blow - but I have been given a free, instant crusade marker so I can retake it - something I have never seen before, especialy as the spanish have not been excommed. The only thing that has happened is that in the same year the Eggies have reappeared - in Edessa!! So the spanish have 4 stacks to sort out, I can relaunch my crusade to retake it - and it will go through Spanish provinces to hoover the troops. Also I have a crusade headed for Lithuania - it is in Kiev currently looting the russkis!! - so I will have 2 crusades on the go at the same time.
Has anybody ever come across something like this before??

Throw in the english have just had a civil war and the horde have reappeared as well, it all adds up to a wild and crazy game.

[Vladimir]

Wow, Medieval Total Madness .