Campaign map low res screens...

[Lord Adherbal]

All the TW-games has had a serious anti-climax when ever a unit charges because only the front rank do anything. I seriously doubt the others behind just sat there and waited for the guy in front to die before they got some action.
I seriously doubt that after they picking up such speed when they charge that the ones in the back would just stop and wait in line like they do in TW.
And I seriously doubt the front rank would form a neat straight line and just poke their swords and spears at the enemies front ranks.
While yes the front rank shouldn't run past the enemies front rank like that(atleast not all of them) and should start fighting the moment the collision happens but the others behind shouldn't wait like in previous game but pick out their own targets as well and start fighting as well. MTW2 is heading there and fighting itself seems to get better and better.
If we have a time machine and go back and see a medieval battle I think this is pretty much what we will see, a mess of troops.

depending on weapons used of course, but most combat WAS standing in line poking at eachother. Phalanxes and romans with their large shields depended entirely on that. Charging and jumping in/over enemies is complete hollywood nonsense. If you did that you'd probably knock over your opponent, but you'd go down too, in the middle of the enemy formation. Not something you'd want to happen unless you're suicidal or hollywood actor.
Medieval armies - unlike what you see in movies and even MTW - relied mostly on spear armed infantry, who would fight in very close formations (shield wall). Later on spears when replaced by pikes and halberds.
Unless you were a crazy berserker or suicidal you wouldn't blindly charge your enemy, you'd stick as close to the protection of your brothers in arms as possible.

[MaximianusBR]

depending on weapons used of course, but most combat WAS standing in line poking at eachother. Phalanxes and romans with their large shields depended entirely on that. Charging and jumping in/over enemies is complete hollywood nonsense. If you did that you'd probably knock over your opponent, but you'd go down too, in the middle of the enemy formation. Not something you'd want to happen unless you're suicidal or hollywood actor.
Medieval armies - unlike what you see in movies and even MTW - relied mostly on spear armed infantry, who would fight in very close formations (shield wall). Later on spears when replaced by pikes and halberds.
Unless you were a crazy berserker or suicidal you wouldn't blindly charge your enemy, you'd stick as close to the protection of your brothers in arms as possible.

maybe it happened cause it was a unit using long axes(???) so they would prefer a strong charge to dismenber enemy line...and the atacked unit used litle weapons no spears and shields...

[TB666]

I can agree with the phalanxes and romans and the spear units. But wasn't the main objective for the traditional phalanx to break the enemies formation like a wrecking ball ?? While with a big shield like they had in a phalanx this wasn't easy if the enemy fought in the same way and those lines would indeed be created. But the unit in the video has no shields and are using a 2-handed weapon and aren't in a very tight formation either.
As I said earlier, it doesn't look perfect, they shouldn't run through them like that and should react to the first rank but it looks far better then let's say RTW where sometimes the unit stops and slowly walk up to the enemy and these are berserkers I'm talking about.
But if you look on you can see the cavarly doesn't have this and do hit the front rank.

[MaximianusBR]

I can agree with the phalanxes and romans and the spear units. But wasn't the main objective for the traditional phalanx to break the enemies formation like a wrecking ball ?? While with a big shield like they had in a phalanx this wasn't easy if the enemy fought in the same way and those lines would indeed be created. But the unit in the video has no shields and are using a 2-handed weapon and aren't in a very tight formation either.
As I said earlier, it doesn't look perfect, they shouldn't run through them like that and should react to the first rank but it looks far better then let's say RTW where sometimes the unit stops and slowly walk up to the enemy and these are berserkers I'm talking about.
But if you look on you can see the cavarly doesn't have this and do hit the front rank.

agree with you...

[Lord Adherbal]

suppose I gave you an axe, and tell you and your axe carrying friends to go and attack an enemy formation of halberdiers. Would you charge and crash through the enemy or advance with causion ? If you charge you'll most likely end up with a halberd spearpoint in your stomach.

and halberdier formations actualy fought simular to spearmen. They formed a dense wall of spearpoints to keep the enemy at distance, and then individuals would chop at the enemy with the halberd blade, or pull shields and weapons away with the hook, so that other halberdiers can stab at the exposed enemy. Later on halberds got a cross section on the handle that could be use to block enemy attacks.
None of this charge in the middle of enemy formation nonsense that you see in this video.

[TB666]

suppose I gave you an axe, and tell you and your axe carrying friends to go and attack an enemy formation of halberdiers. Would you charge and crash through the enemy or advance with causion ? If you charge you'll most likely end up with a halberd spearpoint in your stomach.

Ha ! I wouldn't have been in a army in the first place
But it is difficult to say, I have never been in that situation and didn't live in those days. People thought differently back then.
Look at Pickett's charge during the battle at Gettysburg, 15000 men marching up to musket and cannon fire knowing it would kill them and yet they did it. That attack was doomed for stage 1 and pretty much everyone knew it and yet did it.
If it was me today I would have said screw this I'm going home.
Everyone view history from modern eyes wether they like it or not but fact is that people thought differently back then. What is insanity to us may not have been that for them.

and halberdier formations actualy fought simular to spearmen. They formed a dense wall of spearpoints to keep the enemy at distance, and then individual would chop at the enemy with the halberd blade, or pull shields and weapons away with the hook, so that other halberds can stab at the exposed enemy. Later on halberds got a cross section on the handle that could be use to block enemy attacks.
None of this charge in the middle of enemy formation nonsense that you see in this video.

They probably did but this doesn't apply to the unit in question. They are not in a tight formation and don't have a shield to take the blow.
What you see is a not very tight unit that is being charged by a unit with a huge 2-handed axe, high on adrenalin and charging down-hill.
I repeat again, it doesn't look perfect but looks better then before.

[Ibn Munqidh]

ouch my hopes for MTW2 dropped AGAIN after seeing that video. An enemy unit charges, and basicly doesn't stop before it's in the middle of the enemy formation, and only then both units start fighting eachother! Even RTW didn't have this problem in this magnitude. It seems the emphasise (sp?) on "cool animations" is steadily killing the TW gameplay...

Adherbal,

You must realize that a medieval heavy cav war horse or light cav charger was really hard to stop once the charge has begun, even by its rider. I would also think that a unit standing firm in front of a cavalry charge would get bashed up quite bad, as tight as it is. A horse back then, with a that armour and its rider, would generate A LOT of kinetic energy that would probably knock three men off their feet, send them flying ten feet backwards if they stood in its way. The way charges were done in RTW was semi-realistic, and in STW and MTW, they werent at all. The only way I see a cavalry being stopped in their tracks is through a spear wall, a phalanx, nothing else, as a horse, however stupid it was, would refuse to charge to its death. I just hope the AI strategical coordination of armies and diplomacy is as good as the graphics are in MTW:II, ive been impressed with the battles so far.

[Geoffrey S]

I seriously doubt the others behind just sat there and waited for the guy in front to die before they got some action.
I seriously doubt that after they picking up such speed when they charge that the ones in the back would just stop and wait in line like they do in TW.
And I seriously doubt the front rank would form a neat straight line and just poke their swords and spears at the enemies front ranks.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what would happen. Mainly armies would push at each other; usually the flight would start at the rear, if troops thought they were getting pushed back too far and got worried, yet couldn't see the main fighting properly. There were far more advantages to sticking with the group than going it alone.

Usually, even after charging, only the first two ranks would be directly involved in the fighting, with the second rank covering the person in front. Further back it'd be almost impossible to see what was going on, let alone attack effectively; it would be here that nervousness would set in and flight may start.

Remember, battles would last hours, unlike the minutes of the TW series. There'd be very few casualties until the final rout, and fighting would be very tentative a lot of the time (poking swords and spears at the enemies front ranks, as you put it).

Don't be fooled by TW. It's a very different beast from the way such warfare truly functioned, which is why such high movement speeds and quickly resolved battles are such an issue with many people interested in the facts behind the fiction.

[screwtype]

ouch my hopes for MTW2 dropped AGAIN after seeing that video. An enemy unit charges, and basicly doesn't stop before it's in the middle of the enemy formation, and only then both units start fighting eachother! Even RTW didn't have this problem in this magnitude. It seems the emphasise (sp?) on "cool animations" is steadily killing the TW gameplay...

Uh, yeah, I have to agree. That looked totally ridiculous.

And those stupid, cartoonish cannon animations really make me cringe.

Looks to me like they have well and truly turned their backs on the realism buffs, in favour of cheap, tawdry, RTS style action.

I suddenly find myself very much doubting I will buy this game. And if it's bad as it looks from that video, I doubt I will ever be buying another CA game again.

[screwtype]

depending on weapons used of course, but most combat WAS standing in line poking at eachother. Phalanxes and romans with their large shields depended entirely on that. Charging and jumping in/over enemies is complete hollywood nonsense.

Not only that, but Roman troops had a method whereby the troops in a maniple would rotate every few minutes from the front to the rear, that way they didn't exhaust themselves and had a chance to recover and keep going. In that video the enemy are barging right through to the rear, as if the body of men they were attacking had no mass at all!

Same with the cannon. They bounce up and down and all around like they were made of paper. The whole thing just looks unbelievably silly.

And I allowed myself to have high hopes for this game. Looks like I was just kidding myself.

[Lord Adherbal]

Adherbal,

You must realize that a medieval heavy cav war horse or light cav charger was really hard to stop once the charge has begun

yeah, but I'm not talking about cavalry, but infantry.

[Ibn Munqidh]

Same with the cannon. They bounce up and down and all around like they were made of paper. The whole thing just looks unbelievably silly.

errm, screwtype, you do understand the concept of recoil in firearms do you? This is normal of anything that goes boom on one end.

[Ibn Munqidh]

yeah, but I'm not talking about cavalry, but infantry.

Sorry then, irrelevant.

[Lord Adherbal]

errm, screwtype, you do understand the concept of recoil in firearms do you? This is normal of anything that goes boom on one end.

true, but the cannons should role backward, or - considering the wheels are blocked - slightly move upward, but not as much as they do now. Although I personally don't care about that. I'd happily trade those fancy 3D graphics for 2D sprites if the gameplay would match or perhaps even excell that of STW and MTW.

[MaximianusBR]

true, but the cannons should role backward, or - considering the wheels are blocked - slightly move upward, but not as much as they do now. Although I personally don't care about that. I'd happily trade those fancy 3D graphics for 2D sprites if the gameplay would match or perhaps even excell that of STW and MTW.

some people are never happy...

[econ21]

depending on weapons used of course, but most combat WAS standing in line poking at eachother. Phalanxes and romans with their large shields depended entirely on that. Charging and jumping in/over enemies is complete hollywood nonsense.

I'm sure you are right overall, but there was a lovely historical account posted recently (I think on the EB forums) of how Roman soldiers climbed over the shields of their enemies in their eagerness to get at them. Now that might have been a Roman general over-selling his boys for the folks back home but I suspect there's an element of truth in it. Studies of modern warfare tend to show it is something like 1/20 soldiers who are the real killers who take risks and act offensively. The way elite units and special forces can overcome larger numbers of lower quality troops probably reflect them having a higher proportion of such men, whether by selection, esprit de corps or training. I'm prepared to believe the Roman legionnaires at their prime might have had that advantage over some of their opponents. Ditto the Vikings, the Mongols, the Conquistadores, the Zulus etc in their day. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog, and all that.

[Ignoramus]

What is this nonsense about England conquering Rome and Constantinople? It was French Crusaders who conquered Constantinople, and as for the English cinquering Rome, I have never heard such utter rubbish in my life! And if England only has 4 starting territories, I wonder how many Scotland will have?

I have grave fears about Medieval Total War II, in fact, at this rate compared to Rome: Total War, Rome: Total War looks like a very good game. And compare it to the original MTW, this is a cheap, worthless, ahistorical scrap of plastic and cardboard.

[B-Wing]

Ignoramus, I think you're mistaking the English victory conditions for historical achievements. Obviously, whatever mode is being played in that screenshot is not the same thing as MTW's victory point mode, whatever it was called. So calm down.

[Mooks]

That german commander...complete noob. Did anyone else catch how the enemy on his left flank just went through his small infantry and started to attack his artillery? Rout in 2 minutes.

Heres another thing. Why were the enemy advancing on him? He attacked THEM, yet they cleary charged across teh battlefield and attacked, is this possibly because of his adv in long range artillery?

The infantry collision made me laugh. It looks like the enemy couldve just walked through his infantry. And the cannons, they fired TWO SHOTS, how can anything be effective after only 2 shots? All the units reminded me of olympic cross-country runners (running that far, in a suit of armor, in the desert, is extremely hard. Then fighting...)

The romans fough pushing their sheilds against the enemy and stabbing with their gladius from below (hitting..you know..the groin). The were alot more agressive then RTW.

I was thinking about getting this game for christmas or something...but 'glory of the roman empire' city building game is looking nice....

Is CA even reading what we post? Must as well stop posting feedback because they obviosly dont read it.

[Lucjan]

CA had said from the beginning that realism wasn't going to be their focus for M2, but after seeing that pathetic display (cannons bouncing around like ragdolls and a unit littering not stopping to fight until it had run halfway through its target's formation) I'm going to have to abandon my moderationist outlook on the game. Unless there are some serious improvements to the way battles are conducted within the next couple months before release, the only way I'd purchase this game is if it could be modded so that stupid hollywood nonsense like that simply doesn't occur.

[Ignoramus]

Ignoramus, I think you're mistaking the English victory conditions for historical achievements. Obviously, whatever mode is being played in that screenshot is not the same thing as MTW's victory point mode, whatever it was called. So calm down.

I have not mistaken anything. Why would the English victory conditions require you to conquer Rome and Constantinople? Historically, (oh and BTW I am guessing you don't care much about the historical aspect, which is ok.) the English never even set foot in Italy. They didn'y set foot in Constantinople either. So why has CA gone crazy?

[Duke John]

I watched the video and I can now say that the demo will need to have fixed alot of things before I even consider buying M2:TW. Infantry charging halfway through prepared infantry. Seemingly AI controlled cavalry that charges infantry gets almost annihalated and routs within 10 seconds.

The game is starting to look even more like a RTS with humans being reduced to suicidal drones. They might as well remove morale as it is practically the only realistic behaviour left.

[Lucjan]

I watched the video and I can now say that the demo will need to have fixed alot of things before I even consider buying M2:TW. Infantry charging halfway through prepared infantry. Seemingly AI controlled cavalry that charges infantry gets almost annihalated and routs within 10 seconds.

The game is starting to look even more like a RTS with humans being reduced to suicidal drones. They might as well remove morale as it is practically the only realistic behaviour left.

By rts I'm assuming you mean a mindless slugfest some pathetic excuse for a developer decided to stick the word 'strategy' on because he wasn't sure what else to call the garbage.

[Duke John]

A mindless slugfest, yes.

[sunsmountain]

How different my response.. with Rome:TW, I would scrutinize every screenshot to get more information, this time, i'm like Cartman: I dont care.

If they would showcase the new campaign map AI, and show how dedicated the AI built its own settlements, beyond the choice city/castle (economy/military), THEN i would be interested & surprised.

[Lord Adherbal]

yeah only a VERY good demo can make me change my mind of not buying (and modding) this game.

I remember when playing the RTW demo something didn't feel right, but I couldn't say exactly what. The battle was also too limited and scripted.
But after 1.5 years of modding I know exactly what's wrong, and it's a lot. I will certainly study the MTW2 demo until I know which of the RTW problem were fixed - unless it's so bad that I uninstall it right away and move on to another game, or quit gaming altogether.

[maxpriest]

Sadly we don't have much choice, no other high-profile developer is making a game like this.
What would be ideal is if some other developer who IS interested in making a more realistic and complex game would effectively "steal" the idea and make a better version of it ( am I making sense here? ).

[Duke John]

Mad Minute Games has produced excellent tactical wargames. Then there is HistWar which is also still focusing on a tactical wargame. Both are very small independent developers and do not yet have a strategic game included, but the tactical part is/will be far better than TW.

I think that CA is starting to lose a segment of market with its current course; the real wargamers will eventually recognize TW as just a fun game, not a game that portrays battle accurately enough to call it a wargame. Just like AoE is not called a wargame. At least that counts for me. When I read an account of a battle and want to replay it in a game I do not turn towards the standard RTS games, and I will probably will not turn to M2:TW with its, from I can see from the videos, unrealistic unit behaviour.
As a result there will be a gap in the market that is not really filled with "state of the art" games and eventually that will be filled with actually good wargames (HistWar, Take Command at least). A bit like a new generation.

[Furious Mental]

HistWar Les Grognards looks interesting. When it is coming out?

[Myrddraal]

I am confident that the larger bugs which people are appalled at (and rightly so) will not be in the final release. Why? Because I don't think CA are idiots, and I think if you can see these bugs from one poor quality video, then they're hardly likely to miss them.