For about the past week, my local paper (the Philadelphia Inquirer) has really ran on a story about the local cheesesteak joint, Geno's Steaks (a famous establishment) putting up a sign that says "This is America. When Ordering Please Speak English." Out come the PCers. Cue local uproar.
Fast-forward about a week. The LA Times picked up on it and ran a story. As did CBS news. This stupid little story has now become national.
PHILADELPHIA — The sign contains just eight words and is hardly big enough to wrap around a cheesesteak. But here in South Philadelphia, home of the cheesesteak, the sign that Joey Vento posted at Geno's Steaks speaks volumes.
It reads: "This Is America. When Ordering Please Speak English."
Vento, whose Italian grandparents arrived in America unable to speak English, faces a discrimination complaint from the city's Commission on Human Relations, which said the English-only sign may violate city laws.
At a time when illegal immigration has become a divisive national issue, the tiny sign above the bright orange tile at a local culinary institution has sharpened the debate in a neighborhood founded by Italian immigrants. Though some civic leaders are appalled, many Geno's customers insist that everyone in America should speak English — and express themselves freely.
"Hey, what happened to freedom of speech?" customer Al Buck asked Tuesday, clutching a hot cheesesteak and sporting a T-shirt with a red, white and blue message: "Welcome to America — Now Speak English."
Vento, 66, has said the sign is aimed at illegal immigrants in a community where the Mexican population has grown in recent years. He told the Associated Press on Monday that the sign would remain, even if the city fined him. "They would have to handcuff me and take me out because I'm not taking it down," he said.
City Councilman James F. Kenney has called the sign "divisive and mean-spirited," not to mention "bad for the neighborhood and bad for tourism." The Philadelphia Convention and Visitors Bureau, concerned about the city's image, reminded everyone that the city values immigrants' "culture, vibrancy and history."
A Philadelphia Inquirer editorial called Vento's policies "boneheaded," which may explain why he is no longer speaking to the newspaper, or any newspaper.
"The papers twisted his words," said his son, Geno Vento, who was working the counter at lunchtime Tuesday.
Joey Vento was taking the day off, his son said, "resting his vocal cords" after a marathon round of TV interviews. Asked for a comment, Geno Vento replied, "This whole thing is getting out of hand."
The Commission on Human Relations will determine whether the sign violates the city's Fair Practices Act, said City Solicitor Romulo L. Diaz. If so, Diaz said, the city code calls for fines or imprisonment for failure to comply — though the commission normally tries to resolve issues without sanctions.
The local ACLU chapter has staked out a middle ground. "Putting up a sign saying you need to speak English is protected speech," said Mary Catherine Roper, an ACLU staff attorney in Philadelphia. But refusing service based on language or nationality would violate the law, she said.
Anthony Marconni, who was helping Geno Vento serve steaming cheesesteaks, said no customer had been turned away. "We serve everybody. We're not discriminating against anybody," Marconni said.
Back when Joey Vento was speaking to newspapers, he told the Inquirer that illegal Mexican immigrants had brought diseases and crime, and were a drain on hospitals and schools.
It's "wrong, wrong, wrong that a Mexican girl comes here to pop a baby," the paper quoted Vento as saying.
He added: "I say what everybody's thinking but is afraid to say."
Vento, who has "Geno's Steaks" tattooed on his arm, has posted "Speak English" signs on his Hummer. According to the Inquirer, he has driven through South Philadelphia with a public-address system, chastising businesses that hire illegal immigrants.
Vento said the sign, which he posted about six months ago, was intended to improve communication. "If you can't tell me what you want, I can't serve you," he said.
For the uninitiated, a cheesesteak is a cholesterol-delivery device consisting of grilled strips of beef, melted cheese, onions and peppers on an Italian roll.
It is sometimes difficult for outsiders to order at Geno's or other local cheesesteak emporiums because of an unspoken code that requires ordering "wid" or "widout," meaning with or without onions. (One newcomer once asked "Wid what?" and was told, "Wid cheese, stoopid!") One must also specify the cheese — Cheez Wiz or provolone, as in "Cheez Wiz wid."
Given those customs, ordering a "bistec con queso" is not likely to elicit cooperation.
"Why can't they go to school and learn English?" asked Penny Constantino, 78, who told Geno Vento that the sign was too small and should be "more like 10 feet by 10 feet."
Constantino, a lifelong resident of South Philadelphia, said her neighborhood had been swamped by Mexican immigrants. "They're here for years, and they still won't learn English," she said, chewing on a cheesesteak wid.
Over the last quarter-century, South Philadelphia has been transformed from an Italian-American enclave to a melting pot of whites, blacks, Vietnamese, Cambodians and Latinos. Next door to Geno's is a Vietnamese-owned hoagie shop. Two doors down is La Lupe, a taqueria that serves $2 grilled pork tacos. There were two diners at La Lupe at lunchtime Tuesday, and a smattering of customers at the hoagie shop.
The line at Geno's spilled into the street and blocked the sidewalk, serenaded by speakers that played "God Bless America" and the Marine Corps hymn. Several customers said they dropped by Tuesday to have a look at the sign. It was difficult to spot amid the photos of celebrities who have downed Geno's cheesesteaks (Bill Clinton, Rudolph Giuliani, Shaquille O'Neal); police and firefighter badges; and patriotic posters, including one with the words "Proud to Be an American."
Lan Le, 38, a Newport Beach resident who was gnawing on a Geno's cheesesteak, said she spoke no English when she arrived in the U.S. from Vietnam at age 11. Her husband, Roman Le, said he spoke no English when he arrived from Germany at age 6.
"If people come to America, they ought to learn English, like I did," Lan Le said.
Her husband added: "I had to learn it. It's not that hard."
Natasha Milosevich, who came to the U.S. from Yugoslavia 35 years ago, said she dined at Geno's to show her support.
"This guy is being crucified for saying something a lot of us believe," Milosevich said. "This is a free country. If you don't like the sign, you can go back home."
I'm going to wait for some of your opinions on this before I sound off. I'd especially like to hear the thoughts of any locals who know how to order properly.
I don't care alot about the english issue personally, it's more of a sign of boorishness and just being an imbecile to live in a country for eight years and not bother to learn the language. The real issue with immigrants is the surging wage depression and widescale tax fraud of course, but honestly- if Gino likes it, I loves it.
Anyone who's had a Steak n Cheese there will understand.
Damnit - America voted that English was its prime language as opposed to French (one man can make a difference).
It's bad enough we have to bend over backwards in hospitals dealing with people that in some extreme cases think that merely being in the country for FOURTY YEARS doesn't mean they need to learn English. No, we've not got time to mime everything that may be causing problems.
When I go abroad admittedly I speak English. The deal is that I am giving hard currency to their economy, so they can earn it - if they don't want it, I'll find a vendor that does.
maybe those sandwich makers need to move their business to a part of town where only english speakers live - god knows they'll take money from people who can't speak english begrudgingly yet can't seem to accomodate their customers even a tiny bit.
people who dont speak english in communities where english is the majority language don't get very far in life - they're apparently forced to eat at slophouses, for starters. so for anyone seeking a "punishment" for someone "coming over here and not getting 'with it'", well, there it is.
if you don't want to be involved with people who don't speak english in america then the best plan is to get rich and move the heck out of there and stop b******* about being too poor to eat and/or work at better places where language isn't an issue. i've never had a language issue, do you know why? because i work hard and can afford to live where i want and eat where i want where little annoyances like people from somewhere-else who i would normally have nothing in common with aren't part of my daily life.
What's so hard about learning the local language? Gaining a decent command of English may be a fiendish task for a sixty year old Vietnamese to accomplish. But if you're Spanish it is not that bloody hard, eh? So you'll never be the next James Joyce, but how long can it take to live in America and know how to order a steak in English?
Originally Posted by : When I go abroad admittedly I speak English. The deal is that I am giving hard currency to their economy, so they can earn it - if they don't want it, I'll find a vendor that does.
Yes, but you're a tourist then. I'm not going to take a two year language course in Czech when planning a spring break in Prague either.
If I was going to live there indefinately I would.
As someone who's eaten there(check that, I ate at Pat's across the street), I have no problem with the sign at all. It's a very busy place and my guess is he doesnt want lines being held up by not being able to understand orders from non-english speakers. It fits in perfectly with the rest of the signage and the attitude of the place.
If you dont like it, dont eat there- I think they'll get by without your business.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia: If ordering from one of the famous establishments, they insist that you be prepared to state your order, and have your money in hand, or go to the end of the line [18] (and patrons of Geno's are encouraged to "Speak English" when ordering[17]). The requested language is to state the quantity, the type of cheese, and then "wit" or "witout" to indicate fried onions on the sandwich. A common order is "Whiz wit", a cheesesteak with Cheez Whiz, served with fried onions. It is not called "Whiz with", as the guttural South Philadelphia Italian-immigrant pronunciation actually appears on menus—ordering otherwise brands one as an outsider or tourist. Lines for the sandwiches can extend into the streets on certain nights, especially after a sports event at one of the major Philadelphia stadiums, thus showing the need for a rapid ordering system.........
I'd especially like to hear the thoughts of any locals who know how to order properly.
Now that would be interesting , how do you order in proper english when they request that you order in gibberish . It is not called "Whiz with", as the guttural South Philadelphia Italian-immigrant pronunciation actually appears on menus—ordering otherwise brands one as an outsider or tourist.
Damn immigrants cannot even speak English eh , don't you just hate it when these immigrants come over and change things
Again, its their choice. If he expects you to order in a series of clicks and whistles, it's no one's concern but his. If his decision hurts his business (the sign in question certainly isnt), then he has to live with that choice.
that's right. this is a two way street.
/end thread
Originally Posted by Xiahou: Again, its their choice. If he expects you to order in a series of clicks and whistles, it's no one's concern but his. If his decision hurts his business (the sign in question certainly isnt), then he has to live with that choice.
First of all, Geno's is pretty much packed 24/7. They have an extremely efficient ordering system in place. You go up to the window, and say two words: The type of cheese, and whether your steak will be "wit" or "widout" onions. Example: "Wiz, widout." If you order improperly ("Yeah, hi, can I have a steak with some Cheeze Wiz, but no onions please? Oh wait, let me go through my wallet to get the money... do you take fifties?") you will be moved to the back of the line.
Geno's, along with Pat's across the street, sacrifices individual customer accomodation for making sure that everyone gets their food quickly. Considering that these places have been in establishment for decades, it is apparent that their strategy works.
When you think about it, foreigners wishing to eat at Geno's really only have to learn five words- and they need absolutely no grammar either. The only communication you will have with the person at the window is "Wiz", "American", "Provolone", "wit", and "widout." That's pretty much it. Is that so much to ask? Personally I think that anybody who can't learn five words is either extremely lazy or have really low mental capacity. Also, the ordering style is so different to pretty much every American outside of third-generation South Philadelphians it's kind of everybody learning a new language.
I think the laws of business apply here. If you want their steak badly enough, you're going to have to work harder in order to get it. If not, Geno's has plenty of other customers who can take your place.
Originally Posted by Kanamori: Anyway, it's not like they're missing anything but a garishly dressed and oversized hot dog bun.
Originally Posted by _Martyr_: It strikes me as more than a little unfair to any visiting tourist...
Believe it or not, that's what I thought when I read this. What about someone from another country, visiting as on vacation (or holiday as the cousins say)? I'm glad when I was in Korea the folks there put up with my ignorance towards their language of course $ is an international language ya know.
But seriously, what about folks from other countries wanting to try out a cheese steak and not knowing the language. You know I'm not exactly a PC police guy, but all joking aside is he going after citizens that don't speak the language or all folks that don't speak English. Besides how the heck is some guy from Phillie know how to speak English in the first place!!!
Baddabing-badda-boom... Yo Adriaaaaaaaan!!!
You make some good points, Dave. You should try arguing on the left more often.
I know Pat's has a section on its website titled "How to Order" - maybe the steak joints should have something like that up on the actual store location (maybe they already do, can't remember off the top of my head, any locals want to help me out?).
Originally Posted by : but all joking aside is he going after citizens that don't speak the language
Actually I think it's aimed at illegal immigrants more than tourists. Now correct me if I'm wrong but you do not consider illegals to be citizens, right?
God bless him.
The whole problem is the illegal immigrants paranoia.
Everyone south of Missouri is in a huff about a "invasion"
I'll allow them to have their own television shows, radios, whatever.
But if I go into a store, and they automatically speak in Spanish, I'm going to get a passport to Canada (I've got a very nice American accent)
Originally Posted by GoreBag: We don't take kindly to those.
And the rest of the world can tell the difference between a north/midwest american and a canadian with as much ease as they can tell the difference between an australian and a kiwi...
Originally Posted by : For the uninitiated, a cheesesteak is a cholesterol-delivery device consisting of grilled strips of beef, melted cheese, onions and peppers on an Italian roll.
It is sometimes difficult for outsiders to order at Geno's or other local cheesesteak emporiums because of an unspoken code that requires ordering "wid" or "widout," meaning with or without onions. (One newcomer once asked "Wid what?" and was told, "Wid cheese, stoopid!") One must also specify the cheese — Cheez Wiz or provolone, as in "Cheez Wiz wid."
Given those customs, ordering a "bistec con queso" is not likely to elicit cooperation
LoL
Geno's don't have to please me with the way they run their business, seeing as i won't be going back to Philly any time soon owning to a little misunderstanding with a mad aunt and her psychotic son who live there. And if I want to kill myself I'll find a more enjoyable way to do it than eating cheesesteak.
But for what its worth I don't see how he can be expected to accept people trying to order in spanish if he doesn't want to, although he could try to be a little nicer about it. And if any business tried this whole "wid/widout" you're-not-from-round-here nonsense on me he'd find I was heading off "wid" my dollars to some place not run by a complete knob, but again, that's his choice.
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave: Believe it or not, that's what I thought when I read this. What about someone from another country, visiting as on vacation (or holiday as the cousins say)? I'm glad when I was in Korea the folks there put up with my ignorance towards their language of course $ is an international language ya know.
But seriously, what about folks from other countries wanting to try out a cheese steak and not knowing the language. You know I'm not exactly a PC police guy, but all joking aside is he going after citizens that don't speak the language or all folks that don't speak English. Besides how the heck is some guy from Phillie know how to speak English in the first place!!!
Baddabing-badda-boom... Yo Adriaaaaaaaan!!!
Wow, Dave... I believe this is actually the first time weve ever agreed on anything...
"This is American, please speak english when ordering"
It would have been a lot less hostile. Not that 'wid' or 'wiz' is in any way related to the noble english language. And from the sounds of it, not that it is in any way related to good food.