Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[Mount Suribachi]

Firstly, I will NOT, cannot, support the wholesale slaughter of innocents!

*bangs fist*

There is no such thing as an innocent Gaul!! Only Gauls who seek to kill Romans, Gauls who will grow up to kill Romans or Gauls who will give birth to the second type of Gaul!! It is not about bloodlust, it is about protecting Rome and her citizens!

Numerius Aureolus, I admire you for stepping forward for the Consulship when other Senators would not. However, it seems that you need to spend a little more time studying in the scriptorium. You have barely begun your journey up the Cursus Honorum, you have not even finished your studies. Instead of practicising your skills on the Campus Martius you seek to be elected consul! Missing out the duties of Tribune, Legate, Praetor and Senator along the way!

For myself, I have always desired to conform to the mos maorium and stand for Consul at 40 or preferably 45 (42 being the preferred age). But times are difficult, our Republic is stretched, so it seems we must stretch ourselves and stretch the mos maorium. But an 18 year old consul is stretching it too far and I cannot stand for that. Jupiter Optimus Maximus reveals his will to me through signs and augurs and the actions of men, and at this time he prompts me to the following action. I desire it not, but I must obey the will of the Gods.

So, even though I am only 35, I put myself forward as a candidate for co-consulship with Lucius Aemilus - conscript father, will you have me?

[Braden]

*bangs fist*

There is no such thing as an innocent Gaul!! Only Gauls who seek to kill Romans, Gauls who will grow up to kill Romans or Gauls who will give birth to the second type of Gaul!! It is not about bloodlust, it is about protecting Rome and her citizens!

....and such actions and attitudes help ONLY to perpetuate that! We cannot hope to erradicate the Gallic peoples UTTERLY, there will always be a Gallic culture Senator. All your proposed actions achieve is to ensure those few whom remain alive swear a bloody vengeance against us.

You are not teaching them any lessions in humlity to their superiors, whom are ourselves, nay! All you teach them is anger and a desire for the heads of good, honest Roman citizens to be cast from their sholders.

You may as well place a sharpened sword in their own hands Senator.

Our strength of arms will allow us to show them that OUR way, OUR culture and OUR Republic are not to be hated but to be embraced.

[Mount Suribachi]

Unfortunately yes, there are a few Gauls left, but Augustus Verginius will soon correct that.

There will not always be a Gallic culture. In its place we may build a civilized, Roman, lasting culture though.

I admire your desire for a peaceful co-existance with Gaul, but it is nothing more than a naieve, foolish dream. Only one of us can exist at the same time and I intend that it be Rome.

[Lucjan]

Senator Servius AemiliusThere is much talk of expansion to the Danube against our enemies in the east, and it is not a subject that I would be adverse to...but if conducted in the manner in which I hear much of this talk, I would.

There are rumblings among some senators that would promote a war with Egypt and expansion into Bythinia. This, I feel, would place the empire in far too tenuous of a situation too quickly. A map of the borders proposed by these men would look like this.
Bear in mind this expansion is suggested for the reign of this consul. I cannot condone this. Expanding to such great lengths too quickly will place the empire in an even more dire situation than it faces now. Expanding directly to control the Danube would require taking two provinces held by the Thracians with land on both sides of the Danube, one with the most prominent city on the opposite side, making both of these territories more difficult to defend than these senators would have you believe. On top of this, direct borders with the vast Iberian tribes on the west, borders with the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires on the east, and the possibility of Germanic or Sarmatian tribes devouring the remains of Thrace and presenting yet another vast barbarian territory to our north would place Rome in a position to be taken apart piecemeal by four surrounding empires. Three of these nations have, at this time alone, the ability to go toe-to-toe with Rome, and due to the deplorable state of the legions, undoubtedly win. Our own information states that Iberia and the Ptolemies have the military capacity to wage a war resulting in a draw of success with Rome, and the Seleucids, although it is true their might has waned significantly over the years, still have a military capacity that surpasses us enough to win a war by sheer attrition and weight of numbers, were it to come to such. It is for these reasons that I will not condone such a course of action.

Instead, if any expansion of the Roman empire is to be desired during the course of this consul, I propose an idea more like this.
In such a scenaro, Rome would expand her borders to the provinces of Noricum and Pannonia against Thrace, both of them easily defendable provinces with borders on the edge of the Danube. It would not, however, take Dardania or the Tribus Getae regions from Thrace, both of them being potentially too difficult to defend this early on. Instead, the focus would be on completing the conquest of Illyria and Macedonia. The provinces of Moesia, Paionia and Edonia would offer us a more easily defendable border against both Thrace and the Ptolemies, and provide us with a solid oppertunity to open up trade and the potential of a strong, beneficial alliance with the Ptolemies. Ending the conflict by subdueing Illyria and Macedon and pacifying Thrace's might by pushing its western border to the Danube, would provide the empire time to stop it's headlong expansion and take a breathe. Time to consolidate and solidify the strength of our bolstering empire. Time to focus on solid infrastructure growth and the reorganisation and significant growth of the legions. A solid Rome could pick its allies carefully, and its enemies even more. Why fight three or four empires at once, when we can ally with one or two, and take them one at a time?

Consider my ideas carefully, the bravado of some of our warhawks to "Push to the Danube" shows an inability to truly recognise the state of the legions against the hordes of our barbarian neighbors and the cornered armies of Macedon.

Do not get me wrong, I am strong for advocating an expansion of Rome's territory too, but we are walking a thin line right now, and it would be wiser not to stretch it too thin. I would rather not find that line snap, and see Rome fall into the jaws of a barbarian behemoth.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Conscript fathers,

Now that Amulius Coruncanius has commendably decided to support me as co-consul I will continue my/our candidacy. If he is anything like his father we can be sure the consulship will be in good hands with him/us.

I do not call for the withdrawal of the candidacy of Numerius Aureolus as I commend his spirit and so I wish him luck in the upcoming election.

[Braden]

Senator Amulius Coruncanius, your acceptance that, perhaps, the correct way forward is "Amalgamation” rather than genocide is heartening to me.

With young Senators like yourself willing to modify and adapt their, perhaps extremist, viewpoints there is hope for the future of the Republic indeed.

(OOC: shame….was gearing up for a good argument then. Even had my research done for ammunition against your character)

Senator Servius Aemilius, your ideas are also commendable and both proposals bare serious consideration by the Upper House. I ask if you are considering running for First Consul in the future? Agile minds are what the Republic needs as we grow stronger and or provinces stretch further afield.

Please, Senators, do not forget we are a Republic. This talk of “Empire” unsettles me but it is understandable……just remember WHO we are and who we represent. No King or Emperor rules our citizenry now.

[Lucjan]

My apologies in the utmost Senator Decius..and to the senate as a whole as that may be. Call my loose vocabulary a mistake of youth. I understand your position on my ill thought choice of wording. The Republic is the Republic for the very reason that no one man should have the strength to rule all of Rome. The old kings have taught our people this well, and surely the histories will not let the young forget why 'kingdom', or 'empire' is not the way of Rome. *A brief pause and the young senator raises his right arm, fisted.* Long live the Republic. *An eager glance cast to his fellow senators*

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Conscript fathers,

Servius Aemilius has made an extensive analysis. I commend his effort. His view is the same as mine, except I will lay claim to the Gaul eastern provinces. With his dilligence it is indeed a shame he did not run for consul. He still has 1:15 to nominate himself

[Lucjan]

Dare I bother? At the age of 16? When another of our fellow senators is being criticised and he is two years older than I?

[Mount Suribachi]

Senator Amulius Coruncanius, your acceptance that, perhaps, the correct way forward is "Amalgamation” rather than genocide is heartening to me.

With young Senators like yourself willing to modify and adapt their, perhaps extremist, viewpoints there is hope for the future of the Republic indeed.

You misunderstand me Senator. I do not propose an amalgamation at all. I propose wiping out the Gauls. Only once that has been done can we build cultured, Roman civilisation upon their blackened ruins.

However, I agree with your statements regarding the poor choice of words of Servius Aemilius, thankfully he has realised his error. I would like to commend him on his plans, he clearly realises that we need to avoid any extra conflicts in order to build up our own strength and concentrate on our enemies. The only thing I would like to take him up on is his talk of "expansion" (and he is not the only only one to make this mistake).

We have not fought, or started, any wars of conquest or expansion. Every war we have, and are, fighting has been a defensive war where we have been the victim of foreign agression. Our enemies have been so unwilling to treat with us that we have been forced to take the wars to their soil, and even then then after losing city after city to us, they will not treat. So we must, unfortunately, fight on till we have eliminated their threat. So I fear it will be with Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Gaul and I fear also Iberia and the Ptolemites. But we must not ever seek expansion for its own sake. We are a Republic, not an Empire.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The scribes have organised polls for the post of First Consul and the passing of motions. The polls will close in 24 hours.

I do no believe Lucius Aemilius has posted a manifesto for his candidacy. Protocol dictates that one should be posted, although it need not be extensive.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

My initial message during this debate can be viewed as my manifesto. Nevertheless, I will summarize my priorities.

1. Retrieving our eagle from the threacherous Gauls
2. Consolidating our hold on our territory
3. Rebuilding our battered legions
4. The annihilation of Illyria
5. Generally reorganizing and reordering our cities and lands
6. A campaign against the Thracians and the Macedonians to the Danube
7. Large investement into public works, especially temples

My co-consul might have something to add to this list as well.

I urge all senators to vote AGAINST motion 9.12, as this would require our legions to march trough Iberian held lands, which will probably lead to yet another war.

[flyd]

Anyone who says that all Gauls are out to kill us is an ignorant fool. Go to Cisalpine Gaul, go visit Patavium or Mediolanum, and tell me, who there wants to kill you? Nobody, that's who, other than perhaps a murderer or two, but they are hunted down there as they are in Rome. The Gauls are only a problem when they're allowed to govern themselves. Anyone who argues otherwise has never been to Gaul, or is completely blind. Or maybe he has an irrational fear of the Gauls. Who knows. One thing is certain, however, any such argument does not have its base in logic.

[Lucjan]

Well, Senator Coruncanius, when I speak of expansion, I do so because we are at war. No matter what standpoint you view Rome's situation from, you cannot deny that we must take the land of our aggressors or forever be subject to their assaults. As you should also note, it is myself who has tried to significantly moderate the extent to which many would have us expand. It is my opinion that the Republic must show the world it cannot be sent swiftly into the night, it will strike a spark against its foes and rise to become a new star in the sky. Unforetunatly culture alone cannot sway our foes to set aside the sword..this is why the legions exist. But the legions can put our enemies down, and then we can spread the word of the Republic to those who would do us harm. To educate them in the ways of peace. Within the next five years, unless something severe occurs to interrupt the status quo, I will not back any plans to take more land from other men than I have suggested in my plan to end these wars. That is where I stand.

[Avicenna]

Senator Aemilius, since you are so afraid that Rome's military might is not enough to match some barbaric scum and fat, pompous Greeks, I propose Motion 9.21:
The first consul shall try, to the best of the Republic's ability, to restore all Legions to full strength while without going into defecit. This still means that we should have some profits at the end of each season, enough to continue construction of buildings and upgrades in our cities.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Senator Laevinius, I believe that the time for proposing motions is over.

Although I do regret that it is, since your motion was a good one.

[Avicenna]

My mistake, senators. I will thoroughly berate the Fedex staff for being so slow in delivering my motion to Rome.

[Lucjan]

My feelings, Senator Laevinius, in regards to the state of Rome's legions may be construed by fear only by those too disillusioned to really understand the gravity of the situation.

[TinCow]

I have cast my vote for Senators Lucius Aemilius and Amulius Coruncanius. I have great respect for the achievements of the youthful Senator Numerius Aureolus and I expect much of him in future years. However, it is the Senator Aemilius' choice of co-consul that has determined my vote. Senator Amulius Coruncanius is an old friend of mine and it was to him that I turned to for counsel during the long march through Gaul nearly 10 years ago. He was the most competent and loyal Tribune I have seen in my years with the Legions, and I have seen many. I know too that Senator Amulius Coruncanius understands how best to deal with Gauls. He is the only member of this body who knows the horrors we witnessed on the Gallic Expedition and I am certain that he will make the proper decisions with regard to that vile race. Any civilized man can deal effectively with other civilized nations, but it requires true experience of the barbaric northerners to know how to handle them.

[Braden]

Senator Amulius Coruncanius,

We will continue to be at odds where the Gauls are concerned if you continue to preach murder, that said I would be at odds with any citizen should he hold any such views about any other culture.

However, we cannot look past the immediate for, as we know, much changes – no plan lasts beyond contact with the enemy – Go, retrieve our Eagle and burn that settlement. This I have come to terms with as being our only option for both punishment of the Gauls and to restore our lost honour.

Truth is we cannot capture the Gallic provinces at this time so we are reduced to punitive measures.

Yet we agree on much still, including the fact that we are a peaceful State who has been compelled into warlike action by the steadfast refusal of our neighbouring states to talk with us in a civilised manner!

Senators,

I have cast my votes on the issues before the Senate and the sticky problem of whom shall be First Consul. Suffice to say that I cannot vote for two members to be Consul for I see problems from it beyond that which can be resolved.

Our lack of candidates worries me even more than the prospect of a joint Consulship OR Consulship at the hands of an 18 year old!!

I pray that this will be the last time we have this issue for it is perhaps more serious implications to our Republic than any Thracian army in our lands.

[Braden]

Senator Servius Aemilius,

Time is now on your side, it will not be long before you can feel the steel of war.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I have cast my votes on the issues before the Senate and the sticky problem of whom shall be First Consul. Suffice to say that I cannot vote for two members to be Consul for I see problems from it beyond that which can be resolved.

Our lack of candidates worries me even more than the prospect of a joint Consulship OR Consulship at the hands of an 18 year old!!

I pray that this will be the last time we have this issue for it is perhaps more serious implications to our Republic than any Thracian army in our lands.

I find your remarks on this quite strange. The sharing of power at the highest level has always been the fundament of the Republic and our protection from the tyranny of Kings. I hope we shall not need the services of a second Brutus.

[Lucjan]

Senator Servius Aemilius,

Time is now on your side, it will not be long before you can feel the steel of war.

Provided all goes well my chance to prove my worth in battle may well be right around the corner..not as glorious a start as I could hope for, but it seems until I complete my studies it is the best I could expect much of the senate to allow. My reassignment to Rome, according to my understanding, would charge me with the defence of the province as garrison commander, and give me an oppertunity to erase a local band of brigands that's been thieving from merchants and travelers a short way from the city gates. Policing the province may not be precisely what I'd hoped for, but I do as well understand the value of a significant education, and for that purpose I will do my duties as is deemed appropriate by the senate until I finish my schooling.

[Braden]

Always remember young Aemilius, that no matter what certain older students may say or encourage you to think....education is everything.

(OOC: yeah kids! Stay in School!)

[Lucjan]

Your words are not fallen upon deaf ears senator, though I already hold such values true, it is appreciated.

[Lucjan]

Congratulations to you grandfather, and to you as well Senator Coruncanius, on your success in the consular elections. It was a close decision and both sides were an honorable choice.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Conscript fathers,

I see that this heavy responsibility has fallen on me once again. I will try to be worthy of this, the greatest honour the Republic can bestow upon a man. The task ahead of me is difficult, but with the help of the esteemed members of this house, and the help of the Gods, I will prevail over our enemies. I am greatly honoured by the faith placed in myself and senator Amulius Coruncanius by the senate and with the help of the Gods I hope to prove you made the right decision.

You know me as a cautious strategist, with an urge to perfection. While perfection of course is the domain of the Gods, I will strive to revitalize our nation and bring order to the chaos in our new dominions. You need not fear that I will go to war with new enemies. I have rallied long and hard for a strategic blow at Iberia, but this oppertunity has passed. If any nation makes the mistake of attacking us they will of course know what it means to face Romans in war.

To demonstrate this error in judgement to the Thracians, I have rallied my men and sallied from the besieged town of Segestica. The brave Legio I Italia Victrix annihalated the entire besieging army of Thrace. We took only three prisoners and sent one out to the east, the west and the north, to spread word of our coming and put the fear of Mars into our enemies.


Roma Victor !

Lucius Aemilius - summer 260 BC - Commanding Legio I Italia Victrix near Segestica

EDIT - I have included a complete description of the Second Battle of Segestica

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

A notice is pinned to the senate door :

Any senators with special concerns regarding their assignments or wanting to trade ancilliaries with each other, kindly inform the consul so he can make arrangments.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Conscript fathers,

It is my duty as first consul to launch an investigation into the shamefull defeat of the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia, under the command of the Legate and Princeps Senatus Publius Laevinius, by the Gauls at the crossing of Massilia.
As we all know this defeat was even more serious, almost sacrilege even, as the legion abandonded the sacred legionary eagle in battle, incurring the wrath of the Gods on the Republic.
As my own son, the Tribune Manius Aemilius, was involved, I will be seen as prejudiced and have thus decided to have this trial take place presided by the honourable senator Decius Curtius (Braden), who has no allegiance to any of the factions involved in this debacle, and who has earned the respect of all the senate by his skill at 'diplomatic activities' in foreign lands and the eagerness with which he has volunteered for the most dangerous assignments. It will be his responsibility to arrange the entire trial (in a seperate thread), collecting together material for the prosecution and defence and summon witnesses as he sees fit. I wish him the blessing of the Gods to help him in this difficult task and will make appropriate sacrifices in the temple of Apollo and Jupiter after this session.
When this trial is ended, due to the extreme respectability and high rank of Publius Laevinius, he will present his verdict to the senate who will then affirm or reject it in their next session.

Lastly, I want to congratulate the senate on their wisdom in voting down motion 9.12. If this motion had passed it would surely have meant war with Iberia.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senators, I would like to to thank those who voted for me in the election for their support. I congratulate Lucius Aemilius on his election to First Consul and on his stunning defeat of the Thracian army besieging him. All Rome stands behind him!