Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[Avicenna]

Motion 8.01 has two seconders, Verginius and Curtius.

[Mount Suribachi]

Why must I repeat myself, Senator Coruncanius?

The armies of the Iberians are NOT the same as those of other barbarians, no, where the others send trouser-wearing, unarmoured fools to their deaths, the Iberians send the Scutarii, a highly trained, sophisticated, organised body of skirmisher/shock troops similar to those of our own legions. Under-estimating the armies of Iberia is very foolish. Remember the influence the Poeni have had on their forces.

I strongly agree with the points made by Senator Laevinius. Even if we were to conquer Macedon, it would be a long and bloody war in which we lose many true Roman men. Only then would we be threatened by the Ptolemaics. Not only that, but I predict that if Iberia and Thrace went to war, Iberia would anhilate them. Giving us extra Iberian borders, and these would not be so easy to defend.

By the time Iberia defeats Thrace (if they go to war this is what will happen, if they do not go to war then Iberia will almost certainly attack us) we will have a great superpower on our hands who has already conquered most of the European peninsular. Then, I ask to all those who shrug off this threat, what will you do?

Tell me, are they as strong as Greek armoured hoplites? A Spartan Phalanx?

All have fallen before our legions. The Roman soldier is superior to any soldier anywhere in the world. You talk of them being influenced and trained by the Carthaginians as if that were meant to frighten us! Massive, well equipped armies of Carthage have repeatedly been bested by our legions.

As someone who has done my fair share of fighting for the Republic, let me tell you, I fear no enemy!

Iberia? Pah! Let them come!

If - *IF* - they come.

And then you contradict yourself. You say we should not fight the Macedonians because they are ohhhh so strong and powerful that such a war would be long and bloody. Then, you tell us that we must attack Iberia because they are even stronger and more powerful! By your own logic such a war would be even longer and bloodier. Furthermore it would cause us to abandon our extrememly strong position in Cisalpine Gaul for a bunch of under-developed, disloyal, hard to defend lands.

Finally your assumption that Iberia would certainly defeat Thrace is just that, an assumption. And so what if they do. Just a bit more worthless land for them. Let the stinking barbarians keep it I say.

[econ21]

SENATE SPEAKER: The deadline for motions has now passed. The scribes will arrange a vote shortly.

[TinCow]

I would like to encourage those who have yet to cast their votes to carefully consider their decisions regarding Motions 8.6 and 8.10. Please note that if both motions pass, the Consul will be required to recruit two new Legions in order to fulfill this legislation. If you wish to limit the recruitment to only one new Legion, I urge you to choose between the two and vote yes on one and no on the other. Otherwise our military expenditures may increase purely through semantics rather than the true desire of the Republic.

[Ignoramus]

Motion 8.12 does have two seconders!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Motion 8.12 does have two seconders!

You will find it, along with 8.7 in the thread :

Senate motions, Autumn 263 - additional motions

[TinCow]

Given that Motions 8.6 and 8.10 have both passed, I would like to point out to Consul Coruncanius that the combined language of the two allows for some flexibility. Certainly these motions can be used to raise two new Legions for service in Greece. However, if the Consul believes that the Republic cannot or need not raise two more, I believe that it would be entirely possible to read them in conjunction with one another. This would be such that both motions could refer to the same Legion, thus requiring only the raising of a single Legion rather than two entirely new ones. This would be, of course, at the Consul's personal discretion.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senators,

I am glad to be the first to congratulate Augustus Verginius with his well-deserved triumph.

It is with extreme disappointment that I find that the senate has decided to ignore the growing Iberian threat completely. We will sit safely behind our walls while their fundaments rot away. Lords, I, ... , words fail me to express the depth of my feelings in this matter.

Very well...

I feel the senate has lost its fate in me and hereby offer my resignation as commander of the Legio I Italia Victrix to the acting first consul Tiberius Coruncanius. I am willing to take up a governership instead. I offer my chirurgeon, barbarian turncoat and the Roman Legion I banner to the next commander of this legion. The tribune Gnaeus Hordeonius seems to be the best candidate.
If the acting consul agrees to my offer of resignation I offer the rest of my entourage up for trade.

[Avicenna]

This is an outrage and an insult to all of Rome.

Have we grown so arrogant and greedy as to not care about Rome's security? The barbarians are literally at our doorstep, yet you choose to plunder and pillage Greek lands for riches, while they pose no threat to us. I assure you, senators, Iberia will fill your pockets with riches in time, so you need not worry about that. Roman infrastructure and technology assures that.

However, the Iberians are ending their war with the Germanians, and so will be able to turn their attention to us, and send their barbaric hordes to our homeland. I know not about you, but I care not about riches. I had done so in my youth, but I quickly grew bored of it, as you will too no doubt do so. Our ensured influence and hegemony in the region is far more important than how many rare amphoras you possess, my greedy friends.

I hope it is not too late to defeat the Iberians...

[Silver Rusher]

This is an outrage and an insult to all of Rome.

Have we grown so arrogant and greedy as to not care about Rome's security? The barbarians are literally at our doorstep, yet you choose to plunder and pillage Greek lands for riches, while they pose no threat to us. I assure you, senators, Iberia will fill your pockets with riches in time, so you need not worry about that. Roman infrastructure and technology assures that.

However, the Iberians are ending their war with the Germanians, and so will be able to turn their attention to us, and send their barbaric hordes to our homeland. I know not about you, but I care not about riches. I had done so in my youth, but I quickly grew bored of it, as you will too no doubt do so. Our ensured influence and hegemony in the region is far more important than how many rare amphoras you possess, my greedy friends.

I hope it is not too late to defeat the Iberians...

Well said, Senator. It would seem many of these Senators are greedy to the point of abandoning Rome's security.

Tell me, are they as strong as Greek armoured hoplites? A Spartan Phalanx?

Our modern tactical technology is beginning to outclass that of the Greeks, and as the Iberians employ very similar military tactics to us, I would say so, yes.

All have fallen before our legions. The Roman soldier is superior to any soldier anywhere in the world. You talk of them being influenced and trained by the Carthaginians as if that were meant to frighten us! Massive, well equipped armies of Carthage have repeatedly been bested by our legions.

Senator, boastfulness ultimately leads to weakness! If you believe that our soldiers are "superior", surely that means that the Scutarii are also superior as they are of close relation to our own armies.

As someone who has done my fair share of fighting for the Republic, let me tell you, I fear no enemy!

Iberia? Pah! Let them come!

If - *IF* - they come.

Maybe you do not fear them, but you must seriously consider the impact of fear their invasion will have on our northern peoples: innocent civilians leading their own lives. You seem so selfish that you only want battle yourself, you do not care about these people who are put under threat!

And then you contradict yourself. You say we should not fight the Macedonians because they are ohhhh so strong and powerful that such a war would be long and bloody. Then, you tell us that we must attack Iberia because they are even stronger and more powerful! By your own logic such a war would be even longer and bloodier. Furthermore it would cause us to abandon our extrememly strong position in Cisalpine Gaul for a bunch of under-developed, disloyal, hard to defend lands.

Let us think about Macedon:

Their army is very powerful. Very strong. In fact, so is the army of Iberia. But their is one crucial difference: As long as we can dominate the seas and fortify our position in Venetia, the Macedonians will have no threat on our homelands. The only threat the Macedonians bare is on our lands in Achaea. These lands are not even inhabited by Roman peoples anyway, so why should we care about their survival? The whole expedition to Epirus gave us huge borders with the Macedonians: however, these borders are very easy to defend. Now I know what you are going to say: our borders in the Alpes are easy to defend too. But this is not as true as it may at first seem. (I will explain why Epirus is more strategically important later) We do not need to expand into Macedon, because we have only a few chokepoints in the area that need to be defended.

We have a defensible crossing at Massilia. So what? The land beyond is inhabited by Gauls, who do not threaten us, and they are allied to the Iberians. (at this point I would like to remind you of the excellent work that Senator Verginius did in leaving the Gauls at this position, whilst the Germans took less threatening areas). The Iberians could be coming in through the Alpes at ALL ANGLES, perhaps even bypassing our troops to the point of besieging our settlements! If any lands in the Italian peninsular are besieged, we will know that we have not served the Republic.

Please, Senators, do not think of Italia as a base for expansion. These are our homelands, where innocent Roman civilians live. Why care of the peoples of Achaea? If we are unable to defend Epirus, Macedon can do anything they want to their people for all I care; they are not Roman after all.

[GeneralHankerchief]

You are worried about Iberia to the point as if their armies were commanded by Mars himself.

As it has been stated before, let them come! So far their battles have mostly been fought in the forests of Gaul and Germania against unwashed barbarians- they have yet to try to take mountain passes and river crossings from proper Roman armies!

They have not even attacked us. The war on Greece and Macedon is easy to justify, because only 17 years ago these people threatened to destroy our very civilization! If we apply the "friend of my enemy is my enemy" rule, Macedon also wishes us destroyed.

Meanwhile, the Iberians have attacked Carthage and Gaul. Last time I checked, we were at war with these two cities. While we were on better relations with the Germans we still were not even close to being aligned. I seem to remember some Senators ready to condemn Consul Verginius for helping Germania at all! Senators, Iberia has done nothing to us. Nothing.

And to those who accuse us of greed. Is it greedy to want more money to help out the republic? The Aegean is rich, Senators. Once it is ours, we can begin building projects in our core cities that will help the people! Surely you would rather not have them all living in rat-infested homes, right?

And while we're at it, I'm sure none of you Senators would balk at living in a little more luxury, right? Take Greece, and all Roman lives- The patricians and the plebs- are made better.

[Silver Rusher]

Quintus Classicianus, you still do not realise one thing! Protection of our own people is far more important than expansion into the lands of another. Are we not the Senate and the People of Rome? This program is unfair on our good folks, who wish to simply live in peace. Iberia can seriously threaten us, I assure you. And their threat does not extend only to non-Italian lands which are not inhabited by Romans, like the Macedonians. These people are capable of striking our homelands.

Also, another point which I wish to make is that our people would be made far richer if we traded with the Macedonians and Greeks than if we attacked them.

[Avicenna]

I would prefer living as a beggar any day, Senator Classicianus, than not live at all.

If that is what it takes to save our citizens, so be it.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Senator Hordeonius, Senator Laevinius, you seem convinced that Iberia poses a major threat to us all. Let me explain to you exactly where things stand.

Iberia's armies are nothing new. They are a mix of barbarian and Carthaginian troops. We have beaten both many times.

Furthermore, we have many times overcome great odds.Senator Quintus defeated Pyrrhus (who was much more of a threat to us) and his large army. Augustus Verginius threw off a Gallic ambush with inferior troops. Quintus defeated three large Carthaginian armies on Corsica. And with a blooded, inexperienced legion he held against a huge Greek army with an experienced commander- in the streets, where Greek phalanxes excel!

Senators, all of those battles were against the odds. Now imagine this. These same troops who we have beaten when we were not expected to now have the odds against them. It is they who will have to secure river crossings and mountain passes, they who have to defy conventional wisdom!

Senators, Iberia poses no threat to us. If they try to invade, they will be massacred.

If you fail to see this, then I'm sorry to say, your words will mean little to me from now on.

[Silver Rusher]

If they fought our armies now, maybe they will be massacred. But when there are 10 times as many of them, what will we do? Yes, it is quite possible: if we look at the rate of Iberian military growth, and couple that with data we have gained about their expansion, their is no reason that the Iberians cannot develop into a huge military power. Remember the huge advantage that Iberia currently possesses: they are fighting a war on only 1 front, and that front is quite small at present.

Wait... that's it! A solution to all our problems! We must Strike for the South! Hit the former Poeni trading colonies in Southern Iberia. They are rich, providing more trading potential and money for us, and we do not sacrifice our military position in the Alps. Of course, we may have to ship a large army there in order for this to work.

Considering your opinion on wealth, expansion, defensive positions and easy victories, Senator Quintus Classicianus, maybe you would be interested in such a proposal?

[flyd]

I am glad that the motions demanding an attack on Iberia have been defeated. Although there was a great deal of vocal support for them, it seems there is a significant number of wise, yet quiet, Senators in this house. That is very good.

During the second half of my term, in addition to the actions specified in the motions, I plan to destroy the Greek and Carthaginian navies. I will make securing Italy of the topmost priority. I still do not plan on starting any new wars.

Senator Aemilius, I disagree with your assessment that the Senate has lost faith in you, as a commander. The majority of it simply does not think that attacking Iberia is a good idea at this time, politically. Furthermore, as there is somewhat of a shortage of capable commanders (at least compared to the number of independent armies we have), we can certainly not afford to lose you, especially as you may soon be promoted to the rank of Praetor. It is therefore that your offer of resignation is declined. I will make a best effort to assign you to a different command, however. If you do not believe that it is within my authority, as the acting First Consul and the ranking active officer in our army, to decline resignations, you may take this matter up with the Senate. However, I would ask you to consider the fact that you are an irreplacable part of our army, and that Rome, and its people, need you.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: First Consul, if you can find no young Tribune to replace Legate Aemilius at the Massila ford, I would be happy to trade posts with him. Battling the bandits threatening central Italy has given me a renewed taste for war, while the great city of Roma would be a worthy appointment for a man so esteemed as Legate Aemilius.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Acting first consul Tiberius Coruncanius,

Very well. If the republic has need of me in my present position, I will of course remain at my post, vigilant as always.
I am glad in retrospect, as I remain convinced the Iberians pose a significant threat to us and I would not have slept soundly knowing an inexperienced commander was left at our border crossing.

I wish you luck, wisdom and the blessing of the Gods in your final term, acting first consul.

[Mount Suribachi]

at this point I would like to remind you of the excellent work that Senator Verginius did in leaving the Gauls at this position, whilst the Germans took less threatening areas

And may I remind YOU that I was at the side of Verginius throughout the Gallic campaign!

our people would be made far richer if we traded with the Macedonians and Greeks than if we attacked them

I agree 100%. But the Greeks attacked us first and they will not sue for peace, therefore they must be continuously attacked until they accept a peace or are annhiliated. I do not propose a pre-emptive strike against Macedon, but the fact remains they are quite likely to attack us in the near future. In which case they will suffer the same fate as Gaul, Carthage and Greece. And by your own same logic we would be much better off trading with Iberia than attacking them, yet once again you contradict yourself

We must Strike for the South! Hit the former Poeni trading colonies in Southern Iberia. They are rich, providing more trading potential and money for us,

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, Senator Gnaus Hordeonius. Either conquest of anothers cities is better for us, or trade is. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it.

Please, Senators, do not think of Italia as a base for expansion

I suggest Senator, that you heed your own advice.

[SwordsMaster]

Maybe a change of policy would be appropriate. Maybe a protectorate offer should be proposed to the Greeks once their capital is sacked. They are thoroughly beaten, and would have nothing to gain from continuing their war against us. For us, it would mean that we can once again unite our greek garrisons into powerful armies and strike into Macedon with Greek and Illyrian support.

Lastly I request to be transferred either into a different garrison, or given command, as the stillness associated with my current post wastes my capabilities and drinking is not really a virtue I would like to develop.

[x-dANGEr]

Publius Pansa enters the hall.. "So long, Senators.."

"Now I can see how easy we're winning this war, it seems more of a waste of arms now, to occupy all these armies with that weakened opponet.. Macedonians and Greeks are from the same origin: Greece. And so, Macedonians will attack us sooner or later, so I think we should open yet another door of war, against yet another going too strong faction. We already have armies deployed in the area, and they're all capable of the event."

[Braden]

I am also glad that a pre-emptive war against the Iberians has been averted. Whilst we have the Greeks nearly destroyed we must complete this task before moving against any other potential foes.

Remember that the Greeks started this war and by Mars! We'll finish it. I will not be happy until we can see the oceans on the otherside of the Balkans!

Macedonia must make the first move though. We are not aggressors for the sake of aggression, we are bringers of enlightenment, we free those oppressed by outdated government, we bring industry and the hope of a united Mediterranean with us.

To those calling for a strike against Iberia I say, fear not. Time is on our side, if we wait but a few years more and if the Iberians are as aggressive as you say THEY will strike us and then, like the Greeks, we will be able to focus our full power upon them and utterly destroy them.

I understand those commanders at the Masllia fords frustration but such vices must be held for now. The World around us changes fast, you're time will come I am sure of that.

[x-dANGEr]

"But, Macedonians being the brothers of Greeks have already declared war on us, since they haven't aided us against their bothers, and so haven't admit their sin of attacking us.."

[Braden]

Convoluted reasoning Senator Pansa, but as I have no qualms about us seizing the Kingdom of Macedon and thus completely securing the peninsular, I shall not argue against it.

However, no such claims can be laid at the feet of the Iberians….tis, perhaps, a shame from certain view points that the Germanians refused us when we approached them for alliance lest we would already be embroiled in a struggle against the Iberians to defend our allies.

[Mount Suribachi]

Well said Decius Curtius :rtwbow:

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Good to see we agree on something at least, senator Decius Curtis. It is never too late to pursue an alliance with the Germans even now.

[Braden]

We should always pursue Alliances where we can obtain them, the Republic is not a machine of war but a bringer of enlightenment. Sore shame that most of our neighbours fail to see this simple point and constantly rebuff our offers of alliance, trade or even the most basic of diplomatic overtures.

I say “fair enough!”, if barbarians and even, so called, cultured civilisations insist on forcing the Republic into military action by continued refusal to talk…then we WILL become that they most fear.

We will keep trying to bridge alliances between ourselves and all those around us until the final point when they force us into conflict, this goes for the Germainians, Iberians, Macedonians, Illyrians….or any others we meet.

The Republic is not unreasonable, all we wish is to secure our trade routes, free those peoples we see as under an unjust rule and ensure the continued and unhindered development of our Republic and her ideals.

Where such ideals lead us into potential conflict we will talk, if we are refused even this basic human courtesy we will try again. If we are left no other option we will fight and they will suffer dearly.

Might our diplomats seek trade and alliances further afield? The Islands of Britannia or other more Northern tribes and places perhaps.

It seems that in the next Consulship we should make a concerted effort to employ and train more diplomats and send them to the far reaches of the known world and establish trade routes….perhaps then we will have something to defend other than our own homes.

(OOC...and perhaps give us more reasons for war )

[Avicenna]

Has Senator Antio not already done this?

We must not linger on these minor issues, as all our neighbours are either at war with us, or trading with us.

The current situation calls for action. Our Legions were not raised to sit around in inaction! We should either deal with the Iberian threat or attack the Macedonians and Greeks, and I urge the Senate to do so. Comfort and peacetime will weaken us, and leave us vulnerable to attack! This must be an underhanded Hellenic trick, and we must not fall into their trap.

Once again, Senators. I urge you to take a path of action!

[Mount Suribachi]

Action must wait Senator Laevinus, I have just learnt from my father that Quintus has died! It is a sad day for our great republic, one of our finest Consuls, one of our greatest generals is no longer with us. Rome mourns! On my way here I saw ordinary men and women weeping with the news!

I hereby move that in recognition of his great achievements for the Republic, Quintus be given a state funeral, and that funeral games be paid for by the senate.

[TinCow]

The great Senator Quintus, first amongst equals, has been enshrined in the Mausoleum. I urge all Romans, patrician and plebian alike, to pay their respects to the Consul who first led us to greatness. Under his wise guidance, Epirus was defeated in Italy and all of Sicily taken into the power of the Republic. He now joins his wife Faustina, who passed on 5 years ago. Envy the Gods, a great man is there to advise them.