Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[TinCow]

First, I would like to thank Senator Publius Pansa for his wise words regarding Motion 6.2. This was an aspect that never occurred to me. I agree fully with his reasoning and as such I hearby withdraw Motion 6.2.

As for Iberia, I would like to remind the Senate that Carthage has but one territory remaining in Iberia: Carthago Nova. All other provinces have been firmly lost and they have not a single army outside of the city garrison. Beyond that, their African forces are fully occupied with the Numidian war and they have made not a single move to reinforce Carthago Nova for many years. Senators, let me show you the grand Carthaginian presence in Iberia:



I show you this for one point and one point only: this will not occupy the Iberians for long. There are two large armies converging on it as we speak and I believe that Carthago Nova will be in Iberian hands within a year. Do any of you honestly believe they will let their large armies sit idle? No, neither do I. They will seek further conquests. I would also like to inform that Senate that the grand Iberian navy consists of a single ship, nothing more. Iberia will not send their armies overseas, especially when the African territories directly south of them are held by the Numidians, with whom they are on friendly terms. No, they will seek conquests by land. With all of Iberia secured and their only land border being with Rome, whom do you think they will turn on?

I admit, this would be an act of aggression. I have no vendetta against the Iberians, nor do I wish them ill. I propose this strike simply because I believe war will come, and come soon, whether we wish it or not. In such a situation, I would prefer to be fighting in their territory rather than ours. In addition, we already have significant forces marshalled in the area and we are ready to strike this very moment. If we withdraw and consolidate, we will lose the opportunity for an aggressive, decisive strike at a later time.

As you all know, I have often spoken about limiting conquests and strengthening the Republic from within. I do not take this stance lightly. It is only because I believe in my heart that the Iberians will move against us soon, that I propose this course of action.

Finally, I would also like to note that contrary to Senator Vibius Pleminius' statements, Illyria is not about to fall. In the past two and a half years, they have repeatedly and decisively defeated large Macedonian and Greek forces. I believe that Illyria will hold on for a long time to come and with luck, they may even retake more of their lost territories.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Pah ! Consul Verginius, your arguments for assaulting Iberia fall on deaf ears here !

True, we had a score to settle with Gaul, and thus I supported your election, but now that I have read your report in full, I demand you explain yourself to the Senate in detail ! Let me quote :

For this reason, I sent Sextus Antio to meet with the Germans. He told them that the provinces were a gift from the goodwill of the Republic to their growing tribe.

I find it hard to believe the consul took this dramatic step without consulting with the senate. Does he suffer from delusions of grandeur ? You gave away conquered territory, still moist with Roman blood, to a nation that we have no alliance with for free ? I don´t believe this, my fellow senators, do my eyes play me false ? Someone wake me from this evil dream !
What next ? Shall we conquer the city states of Greece and give them to the barbarians of Thrace, and let me quote, from the goodwill of the Republic.

I feel the acting consul has overstepped the limits of his Imperium here and I demand his apology to the senate and an extensive explanation and maybe I will not impeach him.

[Wishazu]

Who cares if the hairy germans have received a worthless, depopulated burnt out town from us. It would only have been a drain on our resources anyway. Let all the barbarians fight amongst themselves over the ruins of Gaul. I no longer have any wish to deal with these mudhut dwellers, or anyone else who does not realise the divine supremacy of Rome.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: Senators, we are at an important cross-roads. The actions we take now will dictate the term of the next First Consul and beyond.

One observation I must make at the onset is that an Iberia army is adjacent to the settlement of their Gaulish allies at Gergovia. Consequently, I suspect that if we try to seize Gergovia and Comata as per motion 6.3, or indeed if we attempt to destroy Gaul as per motion 6.1, there is a strong risk that we provoke a war with Iberia. Hence I would urge all Senators who oppose motion 6.4 to withdraw their support for these earlier motions and to vote them down.

Senators, there is another possibility: that the First Consul return to Massilia after his historic raid, leaving Gergovia and Comata as Gaulish "buffer states" between us, Iberia and the Germans. I doubt the Iberians will declare war on us if their lands do not adjoin ours. And Gaul may be hostile, but with only two decimated settlements incapable of raising troops, I cannot see that they would ever be able to breach the ford at Massilia.

Senators, if we try to eliminate Gaul or to hold Gergovia and Comata, I fear we will soon become embroiled in war with Iberia. Until this day, I had not heard one voice in the Senate argue for a war with that power. Were there not calls for an alliance to be made with her, not long ago? I fear we are being sucked into war that we did not plan for little more reason that the momentum created by the First Consul's raids. Yes, we have the men available to invade Iberia, but would not those men be better employed against our existing enemies, Greece and Carthage, rather than making new foes?

The First Consul is to be congratulated on the magnificent military victories he has achieved on his great raid. He has effectively broken the power of Gaul - she will not rise again. In the last election, I almost alone agreed with senator Publius Laevinus that the time was right to bring down Gaul. But the problem is that the First Consul has delivered much of Gaul to the Germans, not to us. And the Germans are a rather more formiddable power than Gaul - a power that we have never intended to fight. Moreover, if we move to occupy what little remains of Gaul, we are likely to be sucked into a war with both Germany and Iberia.

Senators, the First Consul promised us a period of consolidation. I believe this would best be achieved by him sticking to his manifesto plan and returning to Massilia after his great raid has been completed. In doing this, he will have effectively destroyed one of our most troublesome enemies. And through his raids, he will have enriched the Republic with gold and slaves. Returning to Massilia, we will be in a most defensible position, without lands bordering Iberia or Germany. The next First Consul will then be free to devote his reign to another project, without being committed to a new war with Iberia.

Senators, I propose:

Motion 6.8: This house instructs the First Consul, after raiding Bourges, to return all Roman troops back to the Republic. The raided Gallic settlements of Gergovia and Comata are to be left as buffers between us and Iberia and Germany. This motion invalidates motions 6.1, 6.3 and 6.4.

I call upon any of the many Senators who voted for the First Consul to second this motion and insist that the First Consul honour his manifesto commitments.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

It is with a glad heart that I see that I am not the only voice of reason amongst us. I embrace the sentiments voiced by consul Quintus.

I will second Motion 6.8 and withdraw support from Motion 6.1 and Motion 6.3 accordingly. That said, I still believe Gergovia would be a strategic stronghold for us and hope consul Quintus will amend Motion 6.8 accordingly.

I still await a response of acting consul Verginius...

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: Senator Lucius Aemilius, I regret that I cannot amend motion 6.8 to authorise occupation of Gerogiva at this point. I agree that ultimately it would be a fine strategic settlement to occupy. And indeed, I have no objection to the Senate in due course authorising a move into what was formerly Gaul in the future, when we are ready to confront Iberia and Germany.

However, the purpose of the motion is to avoid us being drawn in to an ill considered war with Iberia at the moment. Right now, an Iberian army is camped outside Gergovia, ready to defend the settlement for their allies the Gaul if we attack. If we take Gergovia, I believe war with Iberia will be very likely because (a) there is a chance Iberian armies will defend adjacent Gaulish allies; (b) it is likely that Iberian armies in the province will be within our newly occupied territory, thus entitling the First Consul to strike at them as invaders; (c) the occupation will make the Republic adjacent to Iberia, making us the natural target for expansion by that power.

I have no objection to waging war with Iberia if they invade our lands or if the Senate decides it is in the best interest of the Republic. But the purpose of motion 6.8 is to prevent us stumbling into a fresh war of conquest when the will of the Senate was for a period of consolidation.

I hope Senator Lucius Aemilius can still second the motion unamended and that an additional seconder can be found.

[flyd]

I hereby second Motion 6.8.

Senator Aemilius has brought up an interesting point about diplomacy, and I am wondering what the Senate's opinion is on this. I propose the following motion:

Motion 6.9: This house believes that Consul Verginius exceeded his authority while engaging in unauthorized diplomatic relations with the Germans, and condemns him for doing so. Note: this motion does not impeach the Consul.

Some background inforamation. The Consul gave away large areas of Gaul to the Germans without first consulting the Senate. Whether you believe that this was the strategically correct or incorrect thing to do is irrelevant for this motion. Instead, the question is whether the Consul is allowed to make such deals, without informing the Senate or seeking their authorization. I feel this motion would set an important precedent.

[Glaucus]

That motion is an insult to this very house! Have you forgotten that the Consul has Imperium? He can do as he likes, and as our laws say, he must only consult the senate when dealing with Alliances or Wars. He did not deal with those, so whatever he did was appropriate. He himself took those settlements, and it was our plan always to leave them. First Consul Augustus Verginius has led Rome very well, and, personally, I would offer myself up before allowing any shame or dishonor fall on his shoulders.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I hereby second the Motion 6.9 proposed by senator Tiberius Coruncanius, condemning acting consul Verginius for freely giving away conquered territory to another nonallied nation.

Firstly, let me not detract from the successes that acting consul Verginius has brought the Republic. He fulfilled all the promises I had for him and more besides. Our lands are overflowing with slaves and gold.

But this is not the point !

I wanted to see the Gaul threat removed from our north. Instead, acting consul Verginius has replaced one set of barbarians with a much more ferocious bunch of barbarians, the Germans. Our citizens will not sleep better at night knowing that we now have the ferocious Germans to our north instead of Gauls. On the contrary.

Senator Publius Pansa, the acting consul can not do as he likes, he is not a king, thank the heavens, or a Dictator. I feel he greatly overstepped his Imperium here. Also, your arguments for attacking Iberia cut no wood with me. Why would the Republic attack a nation that has never threatened us, I ask again. We still have an active Motion suggesting an alliance with Iberia for the sake of Jupiter.

EDIT : In view of consul Quintus´s arguments I will continue to support Motion 6.8

[Glaucus]

Why would the Republic attack a nation that has never threatened us, I ask again.

Why would we attack Carthage? We invaded Sicily with no grounds. This time we have grounds. They ally with our enemies, aiding them! We must send a message to the world, if you stand with our enemies, you stand against us!

I wanted to see the Gaul threat removed from our north. Instead, acting consul Verginius has replaced one set of barbarians with a much more ferocious bunch of barbarians, the Germans

The Germans like us! We gave them land are friendly with them. Would you rather us leave lands to a broken people, so that the Germans can come south with a blood lust and ready for more conquest? Since we gave them land, the like us and will not feel the need to expand any time soon. Up until this date, the Germans have hardly expanded at all, thus far they are a calm people.

On a different note, could First Consul Augustus Verginius consider changing his original Motion 6.3 to include the construction of forts? I believe Senator Vibius Pleminius has voiced his support of it.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: I must speak against motion 6.9. While I too was shocked to hear that we have given Germany settlements in Gaul, the First Consul was acting within his authority to do so. If Senator Tiberius Coruncanius wishes to restrict the authority of First Consuls in diplomacy in future, he should submit a simple motion that does so, not criticise the First Consul for doing what he was perfectly entitled to do so.

So much for the legality of the First Consul's action - but was it wise? Shocked though I was, I confess I now see a certain logic to it. With the enslavement of their people and the destruction of their buildings, it was inevitable that Gaul would fall. Since Germany is currently more preoccupied than Iberia, I can see why the First Consul wished them to be the ones to step into the power vacuum.

Personally, I have hitherto been in favour of our own Republic occupying Gaul. But given that the Senate decided on a strategy of raiding, I cannot fault the First Consul's execution of that strategy to date. Indeed, rather than condemn him, I believe we should congratulate him on his accomplishments in the battlefield and on the rapid pace of his progress.

However, as evidenced by motion 6.8, I do have grave doubts about the wisdom of his plans for the rest of his term of office.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senator Publius Pansa,

Consul Quintus deemed the torture and killing of honest Roman traders on false pretenses of espionage a fair reason to attack the Carthiginians and the senate supported his decison.

The Iberians may have allied themselves with our enemies, the Gauls, but they are also the enemies of our enemies, the Cartheginians ! And I say the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Striking out at Iberia would be a dishonorable act and condemn us in the eyes of the world as a ruthless agressor.

I feel overwhelmed with joy that that the Germans like us. I can hardly contain my happiness. I suggest we return the islands and Sicily to the Cartheginians in the hope that they will like us too. While we are at it, why don't we give back the Greek colonies ? Perhaps the Greeks will like us too then ?
The Germans have never expanded because they are weak. Now we've made them strong. Perhaps now they'll decide to march on Rome. Even the Gauls fear the ferocious Germans. We have exchanged one evil for a bigger one. Anyone who has met a German will heap scorn on your claims that they are a 'calm' people.

EDIT :
I agree that Motion 6.9 is a condemnation, instead of an impeachment. However, I still feel the acting consul has greatly overstepped the bounds of his Imperium and will thus attempt to impeach him if he does not explain himself further and apologize for the exercise of a decision which I feel belonged to this house.

[Glaucus]

You gave away conquered territory, still moist with Roman blood, to a nation that we have no alliance with for free ?

Senator, if you remember, it was in our plans since the begining to leave those lands to the barbarians. Why should we not raise our standing with the Germans, since we are not to keep those lands anyway? The Consul is not a Dictator, it is true, but I feel what he did was quite within his rights and I fully support his decision.

As to you, ex-First Consul Quintus, I understand your opinions and your reasoning. I would like to see Roman legions marching through Carthago, but right now, our troops are near Iberia, and Iberia is allied to our enemy. I firmly believe that if Iberia did not want a gladius in her rib, she should not have allied with out enemy. Simply put, the ally of my enemy is my enemy, no questions asked. Iberia is next in line, and with the border forts I have proposed, in addition to Consul Augustus Verginius's decision to gift Alesia to Germania, we have nothing to fear from the North.