Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[Braden]

A recognised messenger arrives, it is Decius Curtius’s man servant. After being given leave to speak he unrolls his parchment and beings:

Noble Senators of the Republic,

I may shock you by saying that I will not support impeachment against the Consul for his actions of granting the Germainians Gaul territory. However, what I am surprised and vexed by is that the Consul would give such without first offering a relating treaty? I would like to know why we did not secure a firm alliance with the Germainians for these regions.

I will not support the impeachment as I feel that a Consul should have sufficient “free hand” to enter into such diplomatic moves. I do feel that the Republic has suffered from the Consuls misjudgement in this matter though and a lost chance for an alliance and further trade has been lost.

This is NOT to say that I support the Consul in his actions, only to say that any Consul should have the freedom to perform such acts.

No, I do not support this move. The Germainians can potentially be a much greater threat than the Gauls in time…..but that is a legacy the Consul will leave us for years in the future.

Iberia. Has the Consul lost his sanity?! Is he now a megalomaniac? I do not support any actions against the Iberians, we should withdraw as the Consul pledged to do in his manifesto and secure our borders, hence I support Motion #6.8. The Consul appears determined to drag us into more wars and endless bloodshed..

…I say to the Senate these are warnings that the Senate should have realised about at the last elections!! The current Consul is bent on Conquest for Conquests sake, he is drunk on Denarii I say!

I warned the Senate in the last session of this danger and I was NOT heeded. I ask the Senate to monitor this Consul very closely indeed as whilst the investment in the Republic is commendable the methods he is determined to follow further are unacceptable.

War in the North must stop! This was promised by the Consul before he was elected, he must follow that manifesto and withdraw once Gaul has been pacified. Give more regions to the Germainians if you choose Consul but you MUST gain more than just “good will” for them, this we must insist lest even I turn and urge a full impeachment which will loose you your office.

Lower your blood-lust Consul, come home and build. Carthage is still here, they grow stronger every season……as I predicted!......and soon we will have lost our chance to destroy our great enemy to the South. If you delay too long before preparing for Carthage, my the extra deaths weigh heavy on your heart.

We must use this extra denarii to continue building ships, without them we cannot defend our shores OR launch an invasion of Carthage or Greece or even protect any force in Iberia (should that folly be decided upon). To this end I propose the following motion:

Motion #6.13:

The Senate authorises the completion of a Consular fleet for transport and defence purposes.

Now, Consul, I am at your behest here in Afrika. Whilst I do not support, have never supported your proposals, my life is in your hands here. I ask that I be used in some form as I have been “neglected” in favour of my other counterparts.

The messenger sits and awaits the Senates pleasure……

[TinCow]

It appears my previous words have been overlooked by some. I will repeat them for clarification of this issue:

Regarding the territories given to Germania. It is a total fallacy of thought that I would ever have handed them over freely without spending maximum efforts in an attempt to secure both an alliance and monetary tribute for Rome. Sextus Antio discussed the issue twice with both the Thracian and the Germans. Neither was willing to give either a formal alliance or any kind of monetary compensation for the territories. Wisely, they recognized the total worthlessness of these territories and did not wish to pay for them.

At this point, I was confronted with a situation. Rome could not receive anything of value for these provinces, regardless of how much we may have wished to. I then saw two choices: leave the territories as they were and let the Gauls retake them, or gift them away to a non-hostile nation. I chose to weaken our enemy rather than give them any chance of recovery.

OOC:
Seriously, I think we should start expecting less in the Senate from Consular diplomacy. At this point, we have achieved pretty much everything that is possible to achieve. No one will agree to anything that hasn't already occurred. Greece won't even make peace with us, not even if offered a massive tribute, even though we share no border. Trust me, I've tried every option with Iberia, Germania, Thrace, Illyria, Macedon, Greece and Carthage... nothing works. It certainly is realistic to make motions for diplomatic actions and to discuss these things, but I think it's a bit unfair to hold it against me when it's a game mechanic I can't do anything about.

[Braden]

Consul,

As my master has indicated he does not question the validity of handing these regions to the Germainians. It was, a tactically sound proposition for, as you suggest, they would have been taken by force of arms soon anyway.

I apologise on my masters behalf for not relating the diplomatic details correctly or fully. I am sure his opinion would be to support the choice you made given the diplomatic brick wall you were presented with.

OOC: We’re only holding it against your character, in character so don’t worry. It’s a real shame that someone hasn’t been able to rectify the poor diplomatic AI in this game.

[TinCow]

I would like to take a moment to urge the Senate not to vote in favor of Motion 6.10. As was stated in the battle report, it was Legio I which was truly heroic in that action, not I. Furthermore it was but a single victory in a long and ongoing conflict. It was not a decisive battle against the Gauls nor was it strategically significant in the grand course of the war. I fully believe that renaming an entire settlement after me is excessive and insulting to the men who truly won the battle.

I personally do not believe such an honor is necessary nor do I think it is proper given the circumstances. If the Senate feels that honors must be accorded for this action, then I would ask that they be given to the Legion itself, not to me. Give them a bonus pension and make the Italian auxilia who fought there that day Roman citizens.

I do not believe anything is owed to me, but if the Senate insists otherwise I would far prefer that they not falter in the war against the Gallic tribes at the final hour. I ask of you, I beg of you, do not spare the Gauls. Let us finally avenge ourselves on them and set a lesson for the rest of the world to witness. Though I do not believe it to be in our best interests, I swear on Jupiter that if this body grants my request I will actively seek to avoid war with Iberia at all costs and will devote the remainder of my natural life to precision management of the Republic, to prepare her for whatever will come. Please Senators, let me avenge my family, let me avenge Rome.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Acting consul Verginius,

If that is your wish I will withdraw my support for Motion 6.10.

Seeing as the Gauls are doomed I am inclined to vote for the destruction of Gaul and I will vote for motions that let us take over the remaining Gaul territory. I will thus accordingly vote for Motion 6.1 and Motion 6.3. I would not like to see any of the tribes nearer to us become even more powerful, so I will still cast my vote against Motion 6.2.

I see no point in a war with Iberia, and will thus continue to oppose Motion 6.4, but why not aid our neighbours the Illyrians in their fight against our common enemy Greece instead ? With Gaul destroyed and Carthage occupied with their war against Numidia, we can concentrate on a strong offensive against our original enemy, the Greeks. I therefore urge all the senators to vote for Motion 6.6 and Motion 6.7. If the Illyrians prove too proud to ally themselves at any cost, I suggest we invade Southern Greece, taking the heat of the Illyrian front.

[econ21]

[QUINTUS]: First Consul, I would ask you this: if you are so eager to eradicate Gaul, why did you not propose this at the outset - as Senator Publius Laevinus did? I would have supported you then, when we would have had a whole great tract of land to conquer and occupy.

But now, what would it profit us to seize two depopulated and burnt settlements? Very little. And what would we lose? For a start, our defensible position at the Massilia ford. But above all, by moving to seize those two settlements we would be brought into contact with Iberia, who you fear, and Germany, who you have made strong. Before your term is done, we would likely be dragged into one or two wars when we already have two unfinished! Indeed, you propose that we promptly start one now - with Iberia - for no reason that I can fathom.

And of course, you did not propose eliminating Gaul when you stood for election. Instead, you proposed this curious notion of a great raid - gutting the Gaulish settlements but foreswearing to occupy them. What did you imagine would happen when you vacated them? Did it really surprise you that the pitiful remnants of the people you have enslaved started creep back to their burnt hovels? That idea was apparently too repellant to you, although quite how those miserable survivors could have ever been a threat to us, I fail to see. So instead, you concieved the wheeze of giving those settlements to the Germans. To the Germans! Fearsome and predatory men who make even the Gauls appear civilised. I fear it will be only a matter of time before the Germans send their many javelins back to us in thanks! Hence instead of making the Germans fight for the settlements, at the least delaying their advance, at best making them pay for them in blood, you merely transfered them.

First Consul, how many of the Senators here would have voted for you if you had proposed this little wheeze in your manifesto? Vote for Verginius and a greater Germany! That would have been a catchy slogan ... in the Teutoberger Wald, for sure; perhaps less appealing along the Via Appia!

Verginius, frankly, I believe your hatred of Gauls has unhinged you. When this interim session of Senate opened, I requested that my men be allowed to drive off the brigands loitering in Southern Italy. You readily agreed. But then you quickly retracted that agreement having heard of my speech to the Senate advising against your reckless plan to wage war on the Iberians. Apparently, you no longer consider me a friend since I have attempted to stay your hand from final extermination of the Gauls and the start of a new bloodly feud with Iberia. So, you have undertaken to find a more pliable young Senator and send them to hunt down the brigands in reward for their acquiescence to your vendetta.

First Consul, who precisely did you think you were dealing with in this petulant maneouvring? Some lackey who could be swayed by your trivial inducements or chastised by your petty orders?

Verginius, I have twice defended you on the Senate floor against accusations about your honour and competence. I will not make the same mistake three times.

And do not bother to challenge me to a duel, Sir, I am neither young enough nor stupid enough to waste time with such foolishness.

I second motion #6.9 and suggest to Senator Tiberius Coruncanius that perhaps it should be reworded to:

"This house censors the First Consul for giving conquered settlements to the Germans without informing the Senate of his intention. Note: this does not impeach the First Consul"

However, I will support the motion regardless of the precise wording.

[flyd]

Senator Quintus, I agree with your suggestion regarding the wording of Motion 6.9, it is more clear and direct. If you run into the Speaker, get him to change the wording of the motion.

[TinCow]

First Consul, I would ask you this: if you are so eager to eradicate Gaul, why did you not propose this at the outset - as Senator Publius Laevinus did? I would have supported you then, when we would have had a whole great tract of land to conquer and occupy.

I did not propose it because I did not think it possible. Readily, I admit that I doubted my ability to sack all six settlements withing five years. The incredible bravery and skill of our men has vastly exceeded my expectations and, nearing the middle of my term, I found the Republic faced with an opportunity that neither I nor, I suspect, many other Senators thought we would have. In the face of such developments, surely it is not a sin to sieze fortune when it is offered.

Verginius, frankly, I believe your hatred of Gauls has unhinged you. When this interim session of Senate opened, I requested that my men be allowed to drive off the brigands loitering in Southern Italy. You readily agreed. But then you quickly retracted that agreement having heard of my speech to the Senate advising against your reckless plan to wage war on the Iberians. Apparently, you no longer consider me a friend since I have attempted to stay your hand from final extermination of the Gauls and the start of a new bloodly feud with Iberia. So, you have undertaken to find a more pliable young Senator and send them to hunt down the brigands in reward for their acquiescence to your vendetta.

First Consul, who precisely did you think you were dealing with in this petulant maneouvring? Some lackey who could be swayed by your trivial inducements or chastised by your petty orders?

Amusing, it seems you may have become unhinged yourself, Senator. You personally aggitated for war against mighty Carthage, yet now you fear barbarian tribes. You accuse me of persuing a deranged vendetta against the Gauls, when your stated reason for wishing the erradication of a band of lowly outlaws was because their leader's name was too similar to your own! Regardless, my attempt to appease you was out of defference for your past conquests, which I see no evidence of in the man before me. I promised Publis Pansa that he could personally destroy the brigands with Legio IV long before you ever requested the 'favor.' Frankly Senator, given what I see now, I believe you are ill-equipt for even such a mild battle. Your old age seems to have made you craven, fearing barbarians and going so far as to request retirement into provincial governance. No Senator, I would not give command of a Legion in battle to one such as you, not even if that command had not been previously promised to another.

[Glaucus]

...find a more pliable young Senator and send them to hunt down the brigands in reward for their acquiescence to your vendetta...

*Publius Pansa rises and leaves the House of the Senate, telling his attendant to make ready his bath*

[x-dANGEr]

Senators, I think we should send spies in south Greece, so we know when is the right moment to strike, and strike hard. I hope you'd give me a suitable army to go seize one of their cities, for you all know me of my pure roman roots, and good commanding skills, and to be fair, I want to avenge that woman.

[Braden]

(OOC: Saucer of milk please! Senate floor, table two.)

Consul,

I understand your defence at what you see is a personal attack, however, what the Senate questions are not merely actions that you should have presented the Senate with before acting upon them but also actions and further proposals that run counter to what you pledged before election.

My master had no illusions about what was possible with our fighting men when you proposed this “raid” on Gaul. It is precisely that reason that moved him to vote against it. He was confident that you would demolish the Gauls, although the speed is astounding obviously, the result was never in doubt in his mind. He was also aware of the problems that sudden vacuum would make.

I find it hard to accept your own lack of confidence after the “track record” of our legions against the Gauls, or actually anyone who has opposed them so far. When or legions were killing at least 12 Gauls for each one of their own, how could you doubt them?

However, the main points that my master will contest with you at this time revolve around your proposal to occupy settlements which belonged to the Gauls that you have sacked already AND, perhaps more importantly, your proposal to start offensive actions against the Iberians!

What you did by gifting defeated regions to the Germainians was wrong, you will potentially be impeached for it, but it is done and is the past now. Dwelling on this for anything other than the vote for or against the impeachment is folly.

What should concern the Senate now are your future actions. I see that you have started to back track with regards to the Iberians, I am gladdened of this but for clarification I ask you to state openly that you will NOT start war upon the Iberians and ONLY defend our borders?

Also, you state we should “finish” the destruction of Gaul? Have you not done this already?? You’re original mandate remains – the sacking of Gaul without retaining control of any of her original settlements…….this you have pledged and the Senate agreed upon.

My master will hold you to this pledge. This does not validate the occupation of any of these lands though.

IF this needs further clarification I can submit a motion but I believe it does NOT. It is simple, you must complete the Raid you promised to undertake and then WITHDRAW to behind the ford at Massilia, as you promised to do. Leave those sorry settlements to whatever fate and the Gods dictate.

Then you may do what the majority of Senators voted for you do – build our economy and infrastructure. Where our next conflict in the North comes from will be seen in the future, without a robust economy we will not be able to face the future threats, wherever they come from though.

Greece or Carthage? My master would favour Carthage but a divide of water seems to lead to apathy in the Senate so perhaps the Greeks will be our next main concern….at this time it matters not! What does matter is that you, Consul, uphold what you pledged and do not continue to exceed your powers or mandate.

[Braden]

Consul, Senators,

Firstly I must apologise. It appears I interpreted more into motions #6.1 and #6.8 than was intended by their proposers.

It was my assumption that both could run together but in priority….Motion #6.1 was to FINALISE the destruction of Gaul with all haste with then Motion #6.8 insisting that the troops return to Republican soil AFTER they have completed the task which was set them with the Consuls election to office.

id est, the completed raid of Gaul. Please note I voted against those motions insisting we retained control of any Gallic regions.

As to Motion #6.6 – it is clear that the Senate have not see recent maps of the Consuls current troops disposition and I trust that the Senate will take the Consuls assurance that he will start to move troops into a position READY to undertake Motion #6.6 as it is physically impossible for him to actually complete such a task.

Last I looked our troops were not mounted on Pegasus.

Please Consul, understand that if a task is beyond you, the Senate will not hold it against you.

I ask the Senate Speaker to re-instate Motion #6.1 and allow the Consul to complete the task that he Senate voted him in for BEFORE complying with Motion #6.8.

Destroy Gaul, then return home and build. Consolidate your troops and prepare for acting upon Motion #6.6.

It will be the next Consuls task to complete Motion #6.6 it is clear.

I would imagine that my Master will be honoured to undertake scouting for the mission in Motion #6.6, and likewise will not be in a position to undertake such a task until the next Consulship.

[Silver Rusher]

I would like to take a moment to urge the Senate not to vote in favor of Motion 6.10. As was stated in the battle report, it was Legio I which was truly heroic in that action, not I. Furthermore it was but a single victory in a long and ongoing conflict. It was not a decisive battle against the Gauls nor was it strategically significant in the grand course of the war. I fully believe that renaming an entire settlement after me is excessive and insulting to the men who truly won the battle.

I personally do not believe such an honor is necessary nor do I think it is proper given the circumstances. If the Senate feels that honors must be accorded for this action, then I would ask that they be given to the Legion itself, not to me. Give them a bonus pension and make the Italian auxilia who fought there that day Roman citizens.

Legio I was brave yes, but their bravery was inspired by you! Please, Senator, do not beat yourself up over the rash charge that you led against Lucco. If it had not been for this, the enemy would not have routed and the Legion would have been slaughtered. It was your decisive action that won the battle.

I also disagree on the idea that it was strategically insignificant. Lucco was a great and powerful general. If a less experienced general had taken over that battle, not only would the Legion have been slaughtered but Lucco's army would grow even more confident (and therefore more formidable) and we would be HUGELY crippled for the course of the war. His army was one of the most powerful that the Gauls had, and their ambush made this even more true.

I fully believe that renaming an entire settlement after me is excessive and insulting to the men who truly won the battle.

This is a joke, surely! Your men would have been proud to see their good general's name on the city. They would be able to tell their grandchildren: "I was there, when Augustus Verginius led us to victory against the army of Gaul. I was there when, in spite of a fearsome Gallic ambush, which very nearly spelt the death of our forces, but Augustus managed to turn the tide of the battle."

Please, Senator, do not deny that you won a great victory on that day. However, if you do not wish to have a settlement named after you, that is only fair.

Unless Augustus Verginius changes his mind, I will withdraw motion 6.10

EDIT: OOC: Well, it seems I am too late. Scrap that last bit.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: I ask your forgiveness, Senators, but Mrs Speaker, I mean unforeseen circumstances, force me to open polling an hour early.

Apologies in particular to Senator Swordsmaster, but I believe much of the gist of his motion 6.14 can be taken to be included in the motion 6.13.

No more motions can now be tabled or seconded. Results will be announced in 24 hours.

Now, I must depart in haste... Farewell for now.

[SwordsMaster]

[SENATE SPEAKER]:
Apologies in particular to Senator Swordsmaster, but I believe much of the gist of his motion 6.14 can be taken to be included in the motion 6.13.

I believe this is not the case, honorable speaker, as where motion 13 requests a Consular fleet, i.e. a fleet capable of transporting a Consular army, motion 14 sets much more specific goals for our Consul