Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

...I would, however, like to request that my brother-in-law Augustus Verginius stand trial in place of my father.

OOC : Now I am not a native English speaker, but I don't think Augustus Verginius wants to stand trial I do think he will defend your father.

[Braden]

OOC: to clarify I think we can say "IC" that Augustus Verginius will be held "under house arrest" in lieu of his father appearing before the Senate judicial hearing AND as such can speak in defense of his father.

Actually, something that's very in keeping with the period.

[Braden]

Senators,

I have noted that a quite important Motion has gone, so far, un-seconded.

Motion #9.03.

I hearby second this motion in the hope another will also second it and allow it to be voted upon.

[Lucjan]

(OOC)There seem to accidentally be two seperate Motion 9.16's I believe, however, that mine has been seconded by Lucius Aemilius and Braden's character.

[econ21]

(OOC:) Lucjan, I can't see any clear text to your motion 9.16. Please propose motions using the format:

Motion 9.x: This house proposes X, Y and Z.

Can you draft something using that format and renumber it? I will rejig the seconders accordingly.

[Mount Suribachi]

Senators,

I have noted that a quite important Motion has gone, so far, un-seconded.

Motion #9.03.

I hearby second this motion in the hope another will also second it and allow it to be voted upon.

It has gone un-seconded because it is a foolish motion and you are a fool for seconding it!

The Gods have cleary spoken to us on this issue. The Gauls are Barbarian scum, who cannot be tamed or civilised. The only way we can have peaceful relations with them is when they are lying on the ground with their insides spilling out. I had the honour of serving under former Consul Augustus Verginius in Gaul, I know first hand that they are uncivilised savages deserving only of eslavement or death - I have yet to decide which would be the more appropriate course of action. My former general is correct in his assertion that to vote for this motion is to vote against Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

I would ask to accompany Augustus Verginius to Gaul to rescue our precious eagle, but I know that it is Jupiters will that I remain here in Greece with Legio VI in order to finish off the Greeks and Macedonians.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senators, I do not think the war with Thrace has received sufficient discussion here. What are to be our war aims? Clearly, we must first beat off their invasion, but what next? It seems unlikely that the aggressors will settle for peace, so we have to decide - do we intend to occupy their lands, and if so, to what extent?

Senators, I forsee use becoming embroiled in wars with two factions that control vast areas of land - Thrace and Iberia. On the latter, if we are to eliminate Gaul, as some propose, that will take us to the Atlantic. Merely occupying the three current Gaulish settlements will leave us hopelessly exposed and surrounded by Iberian lands. We will surely become quickly at war with Iberia.

I believe now is the time to discuss our territorial ambitions. Do we seek to occupy all the lands of Thrace? And what of Iberia, should it come to war? Or do we seek more limited goals, at least initially, for example - occupation of all former Gaulish settlements? There is merit in identifying a defensible frontier as our objective and directing our campaign towards achieving that goal rather than chasing barbarians deeper and deeper into the wild. Rivers may be natural boundaries for such a frontier - as the Massila ford proved to be until recently.

Senators, I already have spoken in favour of currently limiting our Western expansion to the defensible Massila fords to allow us to focus our efforts on the threats to the east.

As for the east, I tentatively propose that we work towards occupying all lands west of the Danube. This would entail that Illyria, Macedon and Greece be destroyed, but I am not convinced of the virtue of pursuing a defeated Thrace into Germania. We would be better advised to look elsewhere for conquest - whether to Iberia in the west, Carthage in the south or indeed the rich lands of Asia Minor and the Levant.

Motion 9.18: This House proposes that the wars with Thrace, Illyria and Macedon be directed towards establishing a frontier along the river Danube.

Are there any seconders for this motion? Or indeed, any dissenters who wish to propose alternative war aims for the east?

[GeneralHankerchief]

I second Motion 9.18.

By the way, I am rewording Motion 9.2: ...blah blah blah Marcellus Aemilius as Tribune once he has completed school.

[flyd]

I second Motion 9.18.

As far as any Gallic campaign is concerned, I believe that after the destruction of Gallic state, the Gallic region disconnected from Gergovia by Iberian lands should be abandoned save for a small garrison. The Roman presence in Transalpine Gaul should probably be a fort somewhere near Gergovia. This may well invite an Iberian attack on the lighty defended region, but so be it; at least we'll know their true intentions.

[Lucjan]

After a bit of confusion I'm reproposing...
Motion 9.19 The house recognizes that there is a significant level of unhappiness in the majority of the Greek/Macedonian provinces, specifically Elis, Larissa, and Antigonea, and charges the next consul to remedy the problem according to his own discression within the first 2 years of his reign.

These people must be kept, at the very least, accepting of roman rule, their current outspokenness against us could only spread further discord. (In game terms, all current Greek/Macedonian cities must have a yellow or green level of contentment. Blue or open rebellion is completely unacceptable)

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Another message arrives...

Conscript Fathers,

I would like to commend Numerius Aureolus for his acuity in spotting our neglect of this important matter. For those not schooled in geography I have provided this map.



As you can see his proposition is very reasonable, as it is a natural and easily defended border. However, I will not start any new wars to realize these borders, being content to drive my enemies into it.

I will second the revised Motion 9.2.
I will second Motion 9.18.
I will not second Motion 9.19 as I think the time limit is too tight.

EDIT :
OCC : Be warned, fellow senators, that I will only run with a co-consul. If no volunteers have come forward before wednesday 6PM UK time I will be forced to withdraw my candidacy.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I hesitate to come forward because of my youth, but if Augustus Verginius is unable or unwilling to serve as co-Consul with Lucius Aemilius, I would be honoured to do so.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

OOC : Any port in a storm Just kidding

[TinCow]

It would be my preference that Numerius Aureolus act as co-consul with Lucius Aemilius if such a position is required. The laws of Rome are the very cornerstones of our civilization. When we discard the laws of the Republic, we are no better than the Etruscan Kings that oppressed us for so many years. The proper amount of time has not passed since I last held the position of Consul and I fear that accepting it, even with the blessings of the Senate, would only serve to erode the Republic. I believe I can best serve the Republic by refusing to serve.

Furthermore, I am troubled by the notion of ceding our laws to allow for a co-Consul or to halve the terms of the Consulship. At very least, such decisions should not be taken without a vote on a Constitional Amendment in this body. Even so, I am confused as to why the Senate cannot arrive at a better solution to this problem.

We have many active members of the Lower House. Why do they not campaign for the position? Rome is strengthed by debate and by a contest of candidates. There is no such thing as defeat in a Consular election, as even an unsuccessful bid strengthens the Republic, and thus we all gain. Furthermore it is an excellent opportunity for those Senators who are relatively unknown to this body to make their voices stand out. My preference would be to see more individual candidates running for election. Already Numerius Aureolus has stated that he would serve as a co-Consul. Why is he not a candidate then in his own right? Why not others? Come forward fathers, the Republic has need of you!

I firmly believe that Lucius Aemilius is the right man for the position in such a time of crisis, but my first duty is to the Republic. If we wish to have Lucius Aemilius as our Consul for this term, we should legislate that his temporary absense is excused and resolve ourselves to pass the time in debate, philosophy or even silence. To do otherwise is to erode the foundations of the Republic.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Augustus Verginius has just given us pause for thought. It is true that we have many active members of the Lower House, but most have either served before as First Consul, as the good Verginius has, or are still relatively youthful, as I myself am. Of the more senior members of the Lower House who have not already served as First Consul, I can identify only Publius Laevinus, who has yet to account for his actions - or inaction - at the Massila ford and Publius Pansa.

In this situation, and bearing in mind Augustus Verginius words about the value of competition, I believe it is inappropriate for youth to be regarded as a bar to this high office. Therefore, I withdraw my offer to serve as co-Consul with Lucius Aemilius and offer myself for the office of First Consul.

Senators, the Republic is in crisis. One Consular strength army of Thracians besieges Lucius Aemilius in Segestica while other armies march towards lightly defended Aquileia. The Gauls mock us and exhibit our eagle in Gergovia. The war in Greece has extended and exhausted our armies, so that we are ill prepared for the most pressing current threats. But at heart, the Republic remains strong. We have an easily defensible Western frontier, while First Consul Tiberius Coruncanius has torn the heart out of Macedon. Greece and Illyria are mere shadows of themselves. We have great opportunities in the east, if we can rise to the challenge of the Thracian invasion. What the Republic requires at this moment is clear direction and focus.

My manifesto is simple and rests on three main planks.

The first is an orientation towards the east. On the east, we are faced with four enemy nations: Greece, Macedon, Illyria and Thrace. If I am elected First Consul, I will endeavour to leave the Republic with only one - a chastened and diminished Thrace, eeking out a miserable existence in the barbarian wastes east of the Danube. On the west, we face only one enemy, one that can barely be called a nation: the crippled Gauls - possessors of only three settlements. I will most certainly recover the eagle and punish the Gauls severely, but I will endeavour not to embroil us in a war with Iberia. That will no doubt come in the fullness of time. But it will be aim of my consulship to defer the war for a successor to deal with, one who can confident in a secure eastern frontier as we now can be confident in a secure western one.

The second feature of my Consulship will be consolidation. First Consul Coruncanius has fought a masterful war against Macedon but he has done it on something of a shoestring, with small frontline armies, depleted by attrition. I will endeavour to reform our armies on more standard lines and bring them up to full strength. I will continue to develop our core settlements, with a focus on the economic infrastructure necessary to fund our armies and on the roads necessary to maintain communications as the Republic expands.

The final aspect of my manifesto is a commitment to collegiality. I will follow the model provided by Lucius Aemilius and even more so by Tiberius Coruncanius of giving all Lower House members the opportunity to command our armies in battle. I will consult with each Lower House member over appropriate postings and will rotate positions so that each has an opportunity to shine. I will not waste the accumulated skills of our First Consuls and I will develop those of other Lower House members so that, when the next election comes, they will feel confident to stand themselves for the post of First Consul.

Senators, I am but a young man but with your help, I believe I can oversee the Republic during this time of crisis and opportunity.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Senator Aureolus, your manifesto and boldness is commendable, but I simply cannot vote for you based on one fact- you are too young!

I remember when my father was Consul, when we used to play Overthrow the King in his house. I remember the fun we had when bossing Dad's servants around. Then, around the time when Verginius was Consul your father was called to Eprius for military duty, and you went along with him. You got adopted into the Senate the same time I entered the Scriptorium in Rome. While I was studying away and listening to my many tutors argue about various affairs you served time as a Tribune and even led your own forces. It's not right that you should lead our great Republic while I'm still stuck in its capital toiling away, praying to the Gods that a Tribune position will be opened up when I turn twenty.

Conscript Fathers, what exactly has made this man fit to be Consul? Because he wants to? Well Senators, if that's the only qualification then I declare myself a candidate. While Aureolus has been in the action in Greece I've been learning how to. Does that make him any more qualified, the fact that he's had experience?

If Senator Aureolus is elected Consul then I demand that I shall be immediately removed from the Scriptorium to active military service. After all, if Aureolus is qualified to run the Republic then I, who is his same age, am certainly qualified to be a lousy Tribune. And if you do not agree - well, Conscript Fathers, that is the ultimate hypocrasy.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Marcellus Aemilius, your frankness does you credit and it is true, I am young. But I wonder if you are also a little young to be so tied to tradition and deference to your elders? Do you have no spirit, no sense of what you could be?

I confess I am not so bold that I would have stood without the prompting of my adopted father, Augustus Verginius. His words have caused me to pause and re-think; they have inspired my candidature. If this is seen as presumptious, I apologise - my move is out of duty, not ambition.

We stand here in the Senate, the Republic dishonoured by the loss of an eagle and your father besieged by invaders from Thrace. And yet none of our elders comes forward to stand as First Consul! So what do we do, we the next generation? Do we stand around and fret, hide in a corner and say we are too young to take up the challenge? Or do we work together and show the Republic what her sons can do for her?

Yes, I am young. I am eighteen. Alexander was twenty when he became King of Macedon. Is two years so important? Or was Alexander also too young? I do not claim to be an Alexander. I have seen battle. I have commanded an army. I have even been lauded as a popular hero. Yet I am no Alexander. I am however a Roman who is not ashamed to stand for my country when no other man will.

[Dooz]

{Galerius Vatinius}

Senators, I believe the choice is clear. Numerius Aureolus has shown bold initiative and I for one do not doubt his abilities. He has 6 years of military experience already, lied about his age and became active at the age of 12! He is young, but is a good commander, this has been proven already. The people of this great Republic love him, he is a popular hero amongst the plebs. I believe his plans are exactly what this Republic needs in a time of crisis such as this. Do not let age blind you Senators! He has wisdom and experience beyond his years. He is married and to a fine woman indeed! I for one, as a young student, look up to Senator Aureolus and look forward to his reign as Consul. His plans of incorporating the younger generation of Romans into the military directly affect myself and my colleagues. I firmly place my vote with Numerius Aureolus and believe he is the right man for the job. Do away with these old men in the senate! It is time for the new generation to rise!

[flyd]

I've given this issue some thought, but was unable to make up my mind. On one hand, Numerius Aureolus is an able commander. There is no doubt about that, that has been proven, I have seen it, both in the actions of the Consular Army in and around Macedonia, where he was a Tribune, and with him in command of a small detachment in Epirus and Thessaly. Furthermore, his manifesto is reasonable and strategically sound.

On the other hand, he is inexperienced. I do not speak of his age. He may be young, but he has been in the Roman army for 6 years. I realize that he must have lied about his age upon joining, but that's in the past now. But I'm still not sure that's sufficient experience. I have no doubt he will be able to manage Rome. The civilian side of things, the treasury and the construction is easy, anyone can do that. Overall strategic command of the military is also not an issue as I see it, as he will have many experienced commanders in the field, and to give him advice. The only thing I'm worried about is the Consular Army. I'm just not sure that it can be entrusted to someone with only the experiences of a Tribune, commander small forces and being second in command. It would never happen under normal circumstances, so why does being elected by a civilian body that is the Senate enable him to command larger forces? Now, we have allowed Legates to take command of Consular Armies upon their election as First Consul, but the jump from Tribune to Consul is a bit much for me.

Upon being elected, he should and would take command of the Consular Army in name, and carry its banner, but I would feel a lot better if he would keep the size of his personal command to at most a Legion, for at least the first few battles. Should they be successes, then I could maybe accept that he commands an actual Consular Army.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul Coruncanius's words are just and fair. I will commit to initially lead only a Praetorian sized army, under the Consular banner, until the mid-term.

In passing, I would also expect other generals to fight with Praetorian armies, although I will endeavour to keep them up to full strength and where necessary supplement them with a couple of mercenary detachments. This may test our generals' command skills, but will allow us to fight with multiple armies on the broad front that the war in the east has become.

[Dooz]

{Galerius Vatinius}

Senator Coruncanius makes a good point. I therefore propose Motion 9.20, that if elected Consul, Numerius Aureolus lead a Legion sized army for his first 3 battles. If shown to be successful, he can then raise the remaining troops necessary for a full Consular army.


OOC: What's the composition of a Preatorian sized army? In the FAQ, I believe I only saw Legion and Consular armies.

[Avicenna]

Senator Vatinius, could you please elaborate and explain what your interpretation of success is? If Senator Aureolus has three clear victories with a Praetorian army against bandits and brigands simply by outnumbering them does this count as success and enough proof that he is capable of leading our Consular army in your eyes?

As for the war to take the Danube, I agree that this is a defensible border. However, what shall we do with the lone Ptolemaic area on our side of the Bosphorus? Should we gamble that they will not attack us, or should we take it, through force or diplomacy?

[flyd]

I don't believe Motion 9.20 is necessary as Numerius Aureolus already expressed a commitment to limit the size of his personal command during the first half-term.

As far as Ptolemaic Thrace is concerned, it does currently stand in the way of a defensible border in the east. Ideally, I would like to see the Republic expand eastward to Bithynia, which is now held by the Greeks. That said, for as long as Ptolemy remains neutral, I don't believe it's necessary to attack him. If he wants to sell Thrace, that would be even better, as long as the sum involved is reasonable. I would not offer more than 5000 denarii for it.

[TinCow]

It would be foolish to intentionally incite warfare with Ptolemy. His territory is vast and his resources are equally as great. Not only would they be a fearsome foe and a further burden on our already over-extended armies, but they are also a good trading partner and we would lose much in making them our enemies. Yet, they control both Maronia and Tylis. If we occupied any of the Macedonian settlements of Philippi, Bylazora or Ratiaria, we would be risking a border dispute with them.

I think this is a matter that the candidates for Consul must speak on themselves, but in my personal opinion there is no clear answer. It would certainly be preferrable to push the Macedonians from all of these territories, but a war with Ptolemy would be a disaster at this time. Is it worth the risk to see how Alexander's heirs react to the complete subjugation of his homeland? Still, Ptolemy is pre-occupied with the Seleucid pretenders and it is entirely possible that he will not mind sharing a border with Rome.

It is a difficult decision, and one which I would like to hear debate on.

[flyd]

One important thing about Ptolemy is that he is in Egypt. In order for him to fight a war in Thrace, he will have to ship everything over from Egypt. He cannot hope to win a war with Rome in Thrace, especially with the Roman fleet now sailing the Aegean Sea. Given the treasury and naval infrastructure in place, we could quickly get an even bigger fleet. I hope he realizes this. If he does, there will be no issue. If he does not, he will be defeated swiftly in Thrace.

[Braden]

Members of the Senate,

I will address what has been discussed in as much order as I can.

Firstly, I will NOT, cannot, support the wholesale slaughter of innocents! I never have and never will…..Senator Amulius Coruncanius, your blood-lust should be tempered lest you succumb to the very base and barbaric notions that you, yourself uphold as proof of the evil of the Gauls.

We are the light Senators! Not, the bringers of darkness and death….liberators and oracles of enlightenment and organised government and not oppressors of the plebeians.

However, I have seriously err’d. I have not taken into account the tactical position of the Gallic territories and I apologise for this. I have already proposed a Motion to retain control of these territories and whilst some of that motion is acceptable I believe it should be voted against and Motion #9.18 voted FOR in its place.

Motion #9.18 is a more tactically valid option and whilst we must take back that which is ours we must also consider the ultimate defence of the Republic. If Motion #9.18 has not been seconded again I will do so now.

The Gallic question hangs heavy on me though, and very reluctantly I now find myself agreeing that the population of Gergovia need to be made an example of. IF it was viable to hold and completely free the peoples of Gaul I would prefer that but as this is not sound I will have to agree to the utter destruction of Gergovia.

Do as you will with the town, murder its citizens, burn its crops, tear down its buildings…….we are left with little else as an option.

I know this will leave a deadness within my heart when it happens but my duty is to the Republic and not my own sensibilities.

Now, the issue of the First Consul elections worries me deeply. Whilst it is not ideal that candidates so young should be given such responsibility it appears that the other members of the lower house leave us little choice in the matter. I, like the current First Consul, also say that our laws must be upheld and that no Consul should have power for two consecutive terms.

The Republic is our dream, if forced, I will give it to the hands of someone half my age if I believed it to be the only option for its continued survival. Besides, let us not forget that whomever we elect as First Consul will have the guidance of our experienced heads in the upper house.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The question of Ptolemic Thrace is an interesting one. My immediate reaction is that it might be delayed until the mid-term session of Senate. Initially, we can concentrate on repelling the Thracians from Illyria and North Italy, driving them back towards the Danube. And we must also attend to the lost eagle. While that is being done, at least temporarily, we can leave a buffer of weakened Macedonian settlements between us and Ptolemic Thrace to avoid war with Egypt. They may serve much like the two Gallic settlements that lie between Massila and Iberia, which have kept us out of war with Spain. Given the location of our armies, it will take time to humble the Thracian kingdom - the Ptolemic province of Thrace is not a priority at this moment.

In the longer term, this reasoning may change. Thrace is a natural terminus to our eastern frontier and I am reluctant to allow Macedon to regroup. A war with Egypt over Thrace might be more easily resolved than one with Iberia over Gaul. Distance and separation by sea may lead hostilities to peter off, much as they have done with Carthage after we drove her from Sicily and the islands around Italy. By contrast war with Iberia may well prove interminable until she is utterly crushed and occupied. However, these are matters for the future - perhaps beyond even the next five years - and I agree that an entanglement with Egypt is the last thing the Republic needs at the moment. Motion 9.18 reflects a long term war goal, not an immediate objective.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Conscript fathers,

Lacking a co-consul to stand beside me, I shall not run for office. Still, perhaps some other senator would take the place of Numerius Aureolus beside me ? Then I shall run and we will have a choice instead of a foregone election.

Perhaps Marcellus Aemilius would like to take his place. He will then be in a position to dictate policy himself. This offer is of course open to anyone.

EDIT :
I shall not go to war with the Ptolemaic empire.

[Braden]

Indeed this is a concern as war with Egypt will affect the Republics income greatly. However, your reasoning sounds firm in that we have precedent in Carthage who have not struck against us or even blockaded a port for many a year.

Perhaps a diplomatic move towards Carthage would be viewed with favour with them now? We have not had any direct aggressive contact with them for many a year, it would be advantageous to attempt to secure ourselves against them and the extra trade will be welcome.

As for Thrace…they are a powerful foe but we can best them I am certain of that. However, their lands cover a large area and plunge into a region of the world that I believe the Republic has no interest in at this time..

Drive them back past the Danube, fortify the border and be done with them until we have resolved other, more pressing, matters.

The Legions; I have now taken the time to fully review the First Consuls maps and military details and I am truly shocked at the state of certain Legions.

Whilst the Legio I Italia Victrix, currently besieged in Segestica, is what I would consider in “good form” it is BESIEGED!! I am certain that this matter will take precedence even beyond the recapturing of our lost Eagle when the next First Consul takes office.

Legio II Sabina Quintia, Legio III Sicilia Aemilia and Legio V Alaudae are at an acceptable manning level though would benefit from reorganisation.

However, Legio VI and Legio IV Gallica are in an APPALING state of affairs and I am surprised that we have permitted two field Legions to degrade in such a fashion.

I am, therefore, gladdened by the pledge to re-organise and recruit for our existing Legions because, whilst it is obvious that we will require additional Legions in the near future it is VERY CLEAR that we require to make our current Legions “Combat Worthy”.

[TinCow]

I fully agree with Senator Decius Curtius but I wish to point out that the situation is even worse than he describes. Legios II, III, and IV are all far from being at acceptable levels. I would like to remind the Senate that the proper structure of a Legion is noted in the Library. There an example is shown of a proper legion, minus only a cavalry contingent. With cavalry, a full Legion should number about 660 men. Legio II currently has 309 men. Legio III has but 168 men and has had to be reinforced by the entire Massilia garrison. Even this reinforcement brings the total up to only 328 and it leaves the city itself completely undefended. Legio IV has only 227 men. Even the Consular I Army is composed of but 414 men, only 2/3 the strength of a Legion, and that includes over 100 mercenaries!

In truth, we have only two forces fit for battle, Legio I, which is besieged, and Legio V in Sicily. Perhaps Legio V should be activated and sent to the front and one of the more battered Legions on the East should be retired to the Sicilian position where it can be reinforced at a more leasurly pace.