Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[Mount Suribachi]

Augustus Verginius speaks with wisdom. Taking Byzantion gives Ptolomy and Seleucia an isolated Roman city between them. One, or both, of them will be unable to resist attacking it.

And what if Carthage decides to renew hostilities now that Numidia are no more? What if Iberia decides to turn her armies against us. We MUST consolidate, re-group and re-equip. We cannot afford any actions that would cause more wars, as that would undo all the blood and treasure that has been spent to finish the 2 wars that are now drawing to a conclusion.

If we are to take Byzantion, truth be known, I would rather launch a surprise attack on the Ptolomite holdings in Europe and do away with them in one fell swoop. Rather that than wait for them to declare war on us and catch us on the hop.

[Glaucus]

Numerius Aureolus, you have swayed my mind. I agree with you that taking Byzantion is key at this moment. Therefore I second Motions 10.2 and 10.4

I also second Motion 10.5

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Conscript fathers,
It grieves me to see this irrational lust for war in the senate. What has come over you that has afflicted you all with bloodlust ? I sometimes feel like I am surrounded by the beserking Illyrians again, instead of optimates.
Nevertheless, I will say this once more.

The state is not ready for another war !

A massive conflict with Iberia and/or the Ptolemaic empire would be a disaster. Even if our armies in the East will be victorious, which I think they will, they can barely be resupplied from Rome. Any serious defeat could not be replaced in less than a year. The same goes for the West. The Iberians can bring forth massive amounts of troops, which will wither away our armies in Gaul due to sheer attrition no matter how brilliant they fight. It is not for nothing I send those legions all the troops I could spare already !
We do not have the troops to garrision any cities we might conquer. We would be forced to garrison them with very expensive mercenaries, which would be a terrible drain on our finances, and which will stunt our development. The first year and a half it was a struggle to build anything, as our powerful armies had conquered so much territory it was impossible to guard all of it without the heavy use of mercenaries. This made it virtually impossible to construct any large projects. Then the need for new legions stalled the recruitement of auxilia forces to replace the mercenary garrisons. There is virtually no roman or italian soldier in all of Greece, as they are all needed at the border, and we are still short of men ! I find this deplorable. All these cities should be garrisoned by local or italian auxilia troops. The very expensive mercenaries are of better use at our borders.
Furthermore, two legions, the I and the IV are pretty beat up and need reinforcements quickly. Soon we will have three Field Armies and they are now only at legion strength or less.
We also need another legion stationed in Southern Italy, one in Southern Greece, one near Aquileia and one in Macedonia. It takes quite a lot of money and time to recruit and train even a single legion. They don't grow on trees, you know !

When our troops are brought up to strength and when the road network is finished, we might be able to fight a protracted war with one of these powers without undue suffering to our continuing development. Fighting on two fronts will strain us even then. You all seem to forget that the Ptolemaic empire and the Iberians are allies now, if we get involved with a war with one of them we will be at war with both ! We must play for time and rebuild !

This clamoring for war is madness, senators ! Come to your senses !

[flyd]

Of all the nations currently bordering us, Ptolemy is the one we have the least to worry about. Let's not forget that he's in Egypt. They don't have much in Thrace, I reckon we could kick them out in one season if a war started. As far as the threat to us is concerned, Ptolemy cannot be compared to Iberia or the Seleucid Empire. He can, at best, be compared with Carthage, but is even further away, and we haven't seen his fleet perform significant operations in the Aegean.

A war with Ptolemy would not involve a large military campaign. Our war with Carthage didn't involve an invasion of Africa, so why do some apparently assume that we'd suddenly have to invade Egypt if a war with Ptolemy started? In fact, how about we stop being cowards, stop being scared of that bastard in Alexandria, and do what's best for the Republic? I propose:

Motion 10.15: In order to secure the Republic's eastern border, this house instructs the First Consul to completely expel the forces of Ptolemy from Thrace, and to capture Byzantium. This motion authorizes a declaration of war on the Ptolemaic Empire.

[Lucjan]

I second motions..
10.5, 10.6, 10.7, 10.8, 10.9, 10.10, 10.11, and 10.12

I will not sit through these nonsense, irresponsible mentions of going to war unprovoked with Iberia, who has just payed us a tiny sum for passage of one of their wargroups through our lands, nor will I support any motion to capture isolated cities far from the Roman heartlands, Byzantion or not, it is an irresponsible, ill thought idea that could only end in further disaster for Rome. If our enemies thought in such ways we could destroy them all in a matter of days, this idea of taking Byzantion is akin to the Gauls suddenly deciding that taking Jenuensis and bypassing Masillia was somehow in their best interests. This was clearly proven incorrect. Just because Byzantion is lucrative, doesn't make invading it intelligent. And as for Debeltos..it's too much of a risk, I have no doubt in Roman ability to actually take Debeltos, but after the recent turn of events between Iberia, Thrace and the Ptolemies, I have no faith in Ptolemaic ability to restrain themselves from attacking an isolated legion. And I will not support outright war with the Ptolemies, doing so would draw Iberia to attack our western frontier before there is any news of Carthaginian entanglement or success with them, and this could mean too large of an Iberian warhorde at our Alpine doorstep. Not only this, but a distracted Ptolemy could give the Seleucids a strong shot at Egypt...and an empire in the east that holds both Egypt AND Babylonia, is not something I think Rome could contend with at this time. The amount of money they would net from these two breadbaskets of the ancient world combined would be far more than we could bear.

As things stand I feel that we have seriously spread the armies of the Republic beyond their limits, and propose a new system to reform the deployment of legions and defensive fortifications to Rome's borders and her enemies territories.

I propose Motion 10.16 - The Republic must re-think it's manner of deployment for Rome's legions and other defensive forces and come up with a suitable plan to better ensure the security of our growing nation's borders.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Senators,

I have send you some engravings to give you a more graphic view of our situation.

The Western Border


The Northern Border


The Eastern Border


The world as we know it


The relative military strength


The number of territories


While these figures might look promising, remember that most of the extra troops we seem to have are actually garrison troops and thus unusable for war. You see that most of these nations can put strong forces on the battlefield. This goes even for the smaller nations, as they have fewer territories to garrison.
The Republic of Carthage, the Seleucid empire and the Ptolemaic empire probably have equal or more troops in the field than we do. The Iberians probably slightly less.

Savegame : http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/258-aut-end.zip

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I believe we have discussed Legio Vs expedition in some detail and perhaps should also attend to some of the other motions.

Senator Verginius, I was wondering whether you would consider ammending Motion 10.11 so that candidates who want to stand for 5 years can still do so? When the issue was discussed outside of this house, it was felt that for some, five years was not be too arduous. To impose an election at the mid-term in such a case may be a unwarranted distraction. Five years gives more time to achieve something substantial and some candidates may feel they are better able to serve in a concentrated period of time, rather than intermittently.

I suggest the following revision:

(Constitutional Amendment revised) Motion 10.11:
(1) Candidates standing for First Consul can specify whether they wish to serve full terms (5 years) or half terms (2.5 years).
(2) No candidate may serve more than 5 years in any given 15 year period.
(3) First Consuls may delegate powers to pro-Consuls provided that they indicate that is their intention during their candidature (the pro-Consul need not be named).

Note that clause 3, while perhaps appearing unorthodox, is partly to legitimise the current arrangement after the untimely death of Amulius Coruncanius.

The intention of the revised ammendment is to provide the greatest flexibility to candidates for First Consul, in the hope of attracting the widest possible field.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

The scribes have finished checking the reports and documentation of the consuls and report their work is done. Only minor improvements were found.
OCC : That means everything is up to date and some small mistakes have been corrected.

[StoneCold]

How soon can we get a diplomat to the Sarmatians?

If we could get one to them about the same time as when the forces of Senator NUMERIUS AUREOLUS arrive in Debeltos, we could use this conquered province as a gift to them, to cement an Alliance with them. I have misgiving in giving them to either the Plotemies, which will increase their holdings in Europe, or the Selucides, which will also give them a foothold in Europe which might sour our relationship with them in the near future.

If not, I would second it to be raided and abandoned. Let the rebels have it, we will just secure our borders at Ratiaria and Philippi against the off chance of the Plotemies turning on us.

[TinCow]

Senator Aureolus, I will agree to your changes to Motion 10.11, assuming that under section (2) you meant 5 years rather than 5 terms, as the language you have written could allow for a permanent dictatorship!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

It seems we have to keep an eye on this Numerius Aureolus...

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

How soon can we get a diplomat to the Sarmatians?

If we could get one to them about the same time as when the forces of Senator NUMERIUS AUREOLUS arrive in Debeltos, we could use this conquered province as a gift to them, to cement an Alliance with them. I have misgiving in giving them to either the Plotemies, which will increase their holdings in Europe, or the Selucides, which will also give them a foothold in Europe which might sour our relationship with them in the near future.

If not, I would second it to be raided and abandoned. Let the rebels have it, we will just secure our borders at Ratiaria and Philippi against the off chance of the Plotemies turning on us.

Interesting ideas, of which my co-consul might take note. I do not think we can get a diplomat there fast enough, except one of our 'undiplomatic' ones. If we abandon the city the Ptolemaic empire might not be able to resist and take it before it rebels, and then we're at war. Troublesome...

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I share the First Consul's misgivings about simply abandoning Debeltos. I doubt any faction other than Egypt would accept it as a gift, as it would be indefensible for them. In my opinion, it is better to peacefully give it to Egypt, a possible future enemy, than to abandon it and tempt Egypt to seize it and become our enemy now.

Senators, we have been in this situation before - when Augustus Verginius gifted some abandoned Gallic cities to the Germans. This caused uproar at the time, but in hindsight was a prudent move.

I am not overly concerned about gifting Debeltos to Egypt on the grounds that she may become our enemy. The settlement is small and unwalled. Garrisoning it and rebuilding it will if anything drain her resources.

And if war does break out, Legio V will be back soon enough to thank the Egyptians for looking after it for us.

[Mount Suribachi]

How soon can we get a diplomat to the Sarmatians?

If we could get one to them about the same time as when the forces of Senator NUMERIUS AUREOLUS arrive in Debeltos, we could use this conquered province as a gift to them, to cement an Alliance with them. I have misgiving in giving them to either the Plotemies, which will increase their holdings in Europe, or the Selucides, which will also give them a foothold in Europe which might sour our relationship with them in the near future.

Senator, long years of experience has shown us that the peoples of this world are proud and stiff-necked. Not one has been willing to ally themselves with us. Instead they all plot and scheme and attack us! To their ruin I might add! I doubt that the Sarmatians would be any different. (OOC: getting an alliance on VH is nigh on impossible)


As to your questions about the Iberians, their army was camped outside the city when it belonged to their former allies, the Gauls. When Senator Augustus Verginius assaulted the city, he clevery attacked at night, thus preventing the Iberians from coming to the aid of their allies, thus preventing war with them, but leaving their army trapped on what was now Roman territory. The Iberian army should be heading back to their own lands soon. If they do not, I imagine they will attack us shortly.

Senator Numerius Aureolus, in regard to your point about mercenaries. We have so many of them for the simple fact that we can only recruit troops in the Italian peninsula, and that is a long way for what few reinforcements we have to travel. I hope that before the end of my consulship that we will be able to recruit auxilia in some of our Greek cities. Several of our generals, myself included, like to use the mercenaries we recruit in the front line were they do most of our dying whilst our legionaries flank and do most of the killing. Mercenaries are expendable, Roman Citizens are not.

As for the situation with Quintus Libo, I suggest that you send me a letter when I take up my co-consulship; there will be much on my mind then and I could do with a reminder.

Finally, I wish to announce to the house that I am to take the name Publius Pansa Verginius in honour of the father who adopted me, Augustus the Orator.