Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I believe we have discussed Legio Vs expedition in some detail and perhaps should also attend to some of the other motions.

Senator Verginius, I was wondering whether you would consider ammending Motion 10.11 so that candidates who want to stand for 5 years can still do so? When the issue was discussed outside of this house, it was felt that for some, five years was not be too arduous. To impose an election at the mid-term in such a case may be a unwarranted distraction. Five years gives more time to achieve something substantial and some candidates may feel they are better able to serve in a concentrated period of time, rather than intermittently.

I suggest the following revision:

(Constitutional Amendment revised) Motion 10.11:
(1) Candidates standing for First Consul can specify whether they wish to serve full terms (5 years) or half terms (2.5 years).
(2) No candidate may serve more than 5 years in any given 15 year period.
(3) First Consuls may delegate powers to pro-Consuls provided that they indicate that is their intention during their candidature (the pro-Consul need not be named).

Note that clause 3, while perhaps appearing unorthodox, is partly to legitimise the current arrangement after the untimely death of Amulius Coruncanius.

The intention of the revised ammendment is to provide the greatest flexibility to candidates for First Consul, in the hope of attracting the widest possible field.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

The scribes have finished checking the reports and documentation of the consuls and report their work is done. Only minor improvements were found.
OCC : That means everything is up to date and some small mistakes have been corrected.

[StoneCold]

How soon can we get a diplomat to the Sarmatians?

If we could get one to them about the same time as when the forces of Senator NUMERIUS AUREOLUS arrive in Debeltos, we could use this conquered province as a gift to them, to cement an Alliance with them. I have misgiving in giving them to either the Plotemies, which will increase their holdings in Europe, or the Selucides, which will also give them a foothold in Europe which might sour our relationship with them in the near future.

If not, I would second it to be raided and abandoned. Let the rebels have it, we will just secure our borders at Ratiaria and Philippi against the off chance of the Plotemies turning on us.

[TinCow]

Senator Aureolus, I will agree to your changes to Motion 10.11, assuming that under section (2) you meant 5 years rather than 5 terms, as the language you have written could allow for a permanent dictatorship!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

It seems we have to keep an eye on this Numerius Aureolus...

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

How soon can we get a diplomat to the Sarmatians?

If we could get one to them about the same time as when the forces of Senator NUMERIUS AUREOLUS arrive in Debeltos, we could use this conquered province as a gift to them, to cement an Alliance with them. I have misgiving in giving them to either the Plotemies, which will increase their holdings in Europe, or the Selucides, which will also give them a foothold in Europe which might sour our relationship with them in the near future.

If not, I would second it to be raided and abandoned. Let the rebels have it, we will just secure our borders at Ratiaria and Philippi against the off chance of the Plotemies turning on us.

Interesting ideas, of which my co-consul might take note. I do not think we can get a diplomat there fast enough, except one of our 'undiplomatic' ones. If we abandon the city the Ptolemaic empire might not be able to resist and take it before it rebels, and then we're at war. Troublesome...

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I share the First Consul's misgivings about simply abandoning Debeltos. I doubt any faction other than Egypt would accept it as a gift, as it would be indefensible for them. In my opinion, it is better to peacefully give it to Egypt, a possible future enemy, than to abandon it and tempt Egypt to seize it and become our enemy now.

Senators, we have been in this situation before - when Augustus Verginius gifted some abandoned Gallic cities to the Germans. This caused uproar at the time, but in hindsight was a prudent move.

I am not overly concerned about gifting Debeltos to Egypt on the grounds that she may become our enemy. The settlement is small and unwalled. Garrisoning it and rebuilding it will if anything drain her resources.

And if war does break out, Legio V will be back soon enough to thank the Egyptians for looking after it for us.

[econ21]

SENATE SPEAKER: The scribes have posted at list of the motions proposed and their seconders on the Senate doors:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...10&postcount=1

[Glaucus]

Thank you Mr. Speaker.

I second Motions 10.8 and 10.9

Senators, we must look to what is best for us, and that means taking Byzantium. If Ptolemy has a problem with our priorities, they can tell us and meet us in battle. As it is, we have no right to declare war on them. Let them come to us I say. Let it never be said that Romans are war-mongers

[Lucjan]

You would say that the Romans are not war-mongers but at the same time would advocate taking a settlement far from our lands? Not only that but isolating a Roman legion in the process between two very large potential enemies, and expecting neither of them to take action against us? You are condemning a legion to an indefensable, unsupplyable outpost, provoking an attack in the process, and saying you are not a warmonger? Wolves may have learned to hide in sheeps clothing senator, but the shephard can tell his flock from his foe. Taking Byzantion is not a good idea, nor is it in the Republic's current best interest.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Considering Debeltos, I am in agreement with Numerius Aureolus that it is best to give the smoking heaps to the Egyptians.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Before embarking with Legio V, I had a chance to talk with many sailors and travellers, which allowed me to form a picture of the overall situation of the Republic. I wish to make a few observations based upon that review. I apologise if these remarks appear presumptious to our Consuls, who may well have considered them already, but they are offered constructively in case some details are overlooked.

Firstly, I was impressed to hear of the number of mercenaries in our employ, especially in the east. However, I would caution the First Consul against a general policy of disbanding them and replacing them with auxiliaries on the grounds of cost. Mercenaries are very expensive to recruit, but their upkeep is no higher than locally trained men. Once we have paid the intial high cost of recruiting mercenaries, there need be no presumption that we should dismiss them on the grounds of cost.

For example, my informants reported a unit of 120 Illyrian spearmen costing us 101 gold per season whereas 80 Italian spearmen cost us 194. Functionally, the two units are similar and so it would seem much more cost effective to retain the Illyrian spearmen rather than disband them and hire Italian auxiliaries to replace them.

Second, I received word of a renowned Thracian general by the name of Arapeithes the Bloody-handed with a Consular-sized army near Samisegetusa. His location would seem to threaten General Tiberius Coruncanius (who incidentally I congratulate on his promotion to Praetor), defending a ford north of Ratiaria with an under-strength Praetorian army. I would urge that a spy be sent to shadow Arapeithes so that his movements do not surprise us and also that General Coruncanius be reinforced. At present, he does not even have any slingers - which would be a missed opportunity if he is called upon to defend the ford.

Third, I noticed that an Upper House Senator, Titus Vatinius, has a Praetorian army on the frontline with Thrace, north of Delmatia. I would suggest that the new Lower House Senator, Quintus Libo, be sent to replace him immediately. We do not want a repeat of the shame of Massilia ford. It might also be wise to move this force closer to Ratiaria in case Arapeithes does threaten there.

Finally, I would urge that the three churigeons currently in Rome be sent to our frontline commanders immediately. General Coruncanius, Tribune Libo and myself all lack churigeons - surely the most valuable of all ancillaries. Manius the mad, Publius Laevinius or even a student might make suitable couriers. I fear the absence of a churigeon among Legio V may double the blood price of its current expedition. In fact, I believe this last point is sufficiently important to warrant a motion:

Motion 10.17 All frontline commanders should be provided with churigeons as soon as possible.

Senators, please may I have two seconders for this surely uncontroversial motion? Do not let our brave veterans bleed to death on the battlefields for want of proper care.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I too request a churigeon. Personally, I think they should automatically be transferred along with standards of legions.

Edit: Motion 10.17 is seconded.

[flyd]

I second Motion 10.17. The Field Army also lacks one.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Tribune Aemilius, forgive me for not including you in my list of frontline commanders without churigeons. Your need is indeed among the most pressing, but also the easiest met given your proximity to Rome. Perhaps young Servius Aemilius could bring one from Rome during a visit?

Churigeons are easy enough to come by in academies (ooc: 15% chance)- I believe we have acquired two in Rome over the last few seasons. One of the strongest arguments for keeping students in their studies is so that they can attract such fine minds to their services.

[StoneCold]

Are the Iberians in our land moving, ravaging the countryside or just camping there at the moment, if I may ask?

I am asking this because if they are ravaging the countryside, it is as good as a declaration of war on us. If they are camping (probably planning on double crossing us in the near furture once they preceive a weakness) or leaving, we could give them the benefit of the doubt there.

[Divinus Arma]

Dearest Senators of this humble and honorable court, Why do we trifle with such simple matters as the passing on of surgeons to our generals? Is it not apparent to all that the army on campaign has the greatest need? Is it not apparent to all that any such need be granted without bothering this noble and glorious representation of Rome's people?

Our fine Consuls have been elected to do their duty for Rome. It is a waste that these honorable servants of the people be bothered with such trivial matters as the assignment of assistants.

I make a motion to debate the rewards of allowing consuls to take charge of any such assistant as they deem necessary for the conduct of military operations.

These assistants should only be those that have effect on the campaign or battle. Personal assistants that aid in private instruction, managerial duties, and, erm, "influential" support or pleasure would remain under the charge of the currently retaining Senator unless otherwise approved by said retaining Senator.

Have you arguments against this proposal? Would any of you stand against the greater good for the glory of Rome? If so, let us hear your voice! Let it be recorded for the ages that a senator of the people stands not for Rome and her people for their own ambitions! Stand with our Consuls or stand against the elected will of the Republic!

I trust that none within this noble body has objections, so let us take a vote and let it be made law!

[Braden]

Motion 10.17 is also Seconded by myself, although I would have thought the Consuls would perform this task without having to wait for a formal instruction from the Senate.

I have been listening hard again to the debate here and I have my mind firmly set now.

We should take and hold Byzantion. A war with the Ptolomites and Seleucia is very real, weather we do this or not! Personally, I would rather their attentions were focused on a City with high and strong walls…….like Byzantion, rather than our weaker holdings to their West.

Also, we must re-enforce our West in preparation for an impending Iberian assault. I believe that we should NOT pre-empt this however so, my vision for the next segment of the Co-Consulship is to seize Byzantion and perhaps level Debeltos and gifting it to Egypt but to hold back on our Western front whilst consolidating and re-building our legions and infrastructure.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senator Eclectic, I suggest formalising your motions as:

Motion 10.18 (Constitutional Ammendment): Consuls may transfer any ancillaries to frontline commanders that they deem necessary for the conduct of military operations. Where commanders have a full complement of ancillaries but could benefit from additional combat-related ones, Consuls are empowered to transfer non combat-related ancillaries away from commanders to Upper House generals.

[Mount Suribachi]

How soon can we get a diplomat to the Sarmatians?

If we could get one to them about the same time as when the forces of Senator NUMERIUS AUREOLUS arrive in Debeltos, we could use this conquered province as a gift to them, to cement an Alliance with them. I have misgiving in giving them to either the Plotemies, which will increase their holdings in Europe, or the Selucides, which will also give them a foothold in Europe which might sour our relationship with them in the near future.

Senator, long years of experience has shown us that the peoples of this world are proud and stiff-necked. Not one has been willing to ally themselves with us. Instead they all plot and scheme and attack us! To their ruin I might add! I doubt that the Sarmatians would be any different. (OOC: getting an alliance on VH is nigh on impossible)


As to your questions about the Iberians, their army was camped outside the city when it belonged to their former allies, the Gauls. When Senator Augustus Verginius assaulted the city, he clevery attacked at night, thus preventing the Iberians from coming to the aid of their allies, thus preventing war with them, but leaving their army trapped on what was now Roman territory. The Iberian army should be heading back to their own lands soon. If they do not, I imagine they will attack us shortly.

Senator Numerius Aureolus, in regard to your point about mercenaries. We have so many of them for the simple fact that we can only recruit troops in the Italian peninsula, and that is a long way for what few reinforcements we have to travel. I hope that before the end of my consulship that we will be able to recruit auxilia in some of our Greek cities. Several of our generals, myself included, like to use the mercenaries we recruit in the front line were they do most of our dying whilst our legionaries flank and do most of the killing. Mercenaries are expendable, Roman Citizens are not.

As for the situation with Quintus Libo, I suggest that you send me a letter when I take up my co-consulship; there will be much on my mind then and I could do with a reminder.

Finally, I wish to announce to the house that I am to take the name Publius Pansa Verginius in honour of the father who adopted me, Augustus the Orator.

[Lucjan]

Senator, motion 10.18 is foolish and unneccessary, you would be granting the power to take personal servants from senators without their permission by the consul? What is to prevent him from going further and taking our land, taking our positions as senators, making himself emperor? While I have no doubt in my mind that our current consuls would do no such thing, we must consider the possibility of corruption among future, lesser men. The generations are not always kind to political men's morales.

On another note. I would be pleased to allow the usage of my churigeon by our soldiers on the frontline, the skills of such men are needed there most...but I will not send my personal assets to a cause I do not believe in. In that respect, I will gladly travel to Gergovia and supply Legio III with my personal churigeon, but I will not send my servants to deal with those in the east who would have us launch unneccessary attacks on isolated settlements and put good Roman lives at risk, or who would have us go to an ill thought war with the Ptolemies who have as of yet shown us no aggression.

While I second motion 10.17, I refuse to do so if it involves sending MY personal servants to a cause I do NOT believe in...
That said, I will make my way to Gergovia and supply Legio III with my churigeon as soon as possible.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Firstly, I was impressed to hear of the number of mercenaries in our employ, especially in the east. However, I would caution the First Consul against a general policy of disbanding them and replacing them with auxiliaries on the grounds of cost.

I never said we would disband them, which would be a ridiculous idea, I said we would replace them and send the mercenaries to the front.
Your other points are well taken and will in all probability be acted upon by us.
I am amused to see your long list of shortages and deficiencies in our armies, while on the other hand proclaiming we are ready for a global war. I hope you see the irony in your own words here.

I would ask you to retract motion 10.18. This is a very bad idea. Can you see me transplating a drunken uncle to an upper house avater because it suits me at the moment ? The senator in question would be enraged, and rightly so. Furthermore, we would quickly get a bunch of 'clone' generals with no distinguishing marks.

OOC : Churigeons are for inept commanders Just kidding, just kidding !

Augustus Sempronius,
The Iberians are indeed despoiling the countryside, but I am willing to overlook it for now. Anything to prevent another war for which we are not ready.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I would also ask Numerius Aureolus to retract Motion 10.17, as this is redundant as this is already covered by the base rules.

[Braden]

Members of the Senate, noble Fathers of the Republic,

Allow myself to be introduced to you for the first time. I am proud to present myself, Manius Coruncanius, to the Senate in my formative years at the Acadamies in Roma.

As you know, as part of my final studies I am permitted to join you in the Senate and add to the Republics governmental system.

Whilst I will accept that I am young and I hope you will excuse any mistakes I may make due to my youth. However, this is an excellent grounding for my future defending our glorious Republic in military service.

Mercenaries; Ha! they choose to take coin in exchange for killing, we should always use them to take the brunt of casualties where ever our armies are fighting, tis only correct is it not?

Our loyal Romano troops fight and die because of their own honour and love of the Republic....those that choose to fight for mere profit should be used as attack dogs!

I would like it noted that I have a churigeon currently in my employ and I am willing to allow his release to a fighting unit in the understanding that he is returned to me when I will require him, when I take a commission in the legions.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: It is not my intention to get into a confrontation with our First Consul, so I must choose my words with care.

On the matter of the mercenaries, I apologise for misinterpreting the First Consuls remarks. I am glad the mercenaries are not to be disbanded as that would indeed be madness. I agree some mercenaries are fine fighters and should be transferred to the front. However, others might better serve as garrisons. An example may be the Illyrian spearmen I mentioned before: large low-cost companies of rather low grade soldiers are most suitable for maintaining order and dealing with bandits. Moreover, as a generalisation, mercenaries are harder and more expensive to replace than auxiliaries. Consequently, as a general policy, it would seem to be more prudent to keep them safe in garrison duty and send the auxiliaries to the front.

On the matter of "global war" and the deficiencies of our armies, I have neither argued for the former nor asserted the latter. The only military actions I have argued for are limited expeditions to dispatch two of our dying foes, the Macedonians and the Greeks. On the state of our armies, I said I was impressed by the number of mercenaries we have. We have more inner reserves than I had expected - Manius the mad has a full Praetorian army north of Jenuensis, for example.

On motion 10.17, it is true that the Consuls are authorised to transfer churigeons under the constitution and do not require a motion to do so. However, the motion arose when I discovered there were three churigeons in Rome and four armies on the frontline without churigeons. The motion does not seek to grant the Consuls powers they already have. Instead, it is designed to prod them to use those powers a little more expeditiously. I understand Consuls may have different opinions about the extent to which they wish to micromanage such matters and indeed the extent to which they wish to interfere with the personal arrangements of other Senators. However, motion 10.17 arises because veterans bleeding to death unnecessarily will not concern themselves with such proprieties.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Numerius Aureolus,

So you would send our cheap, low quality, police forces to fight in the front line and leave the elite, expensive to maintain, mercenary units to guard the towns ???
I think I am misunderstanding your remarks. I was planning to replace the expensive to maintain mercenaries guarding towns with auxialia troops. As Illyrian spearmen are auxilia troops that can be recruited in Illyria, they would not be send to the front, but would be send to replace expensive mercenary units guarding Illyrian towns. As most Greek cities can not recruit Auxilia forces, they should be guarded by cheap Italian Auxilia. Then again, I am a perfectionist and my co-consul might take a more disorderly and flexible approach.

I shall not argue about your past remarks in the senate, trusting the senators to make up their own mind about them.

I will not send a student on a four-year journey to bring a chirurgeon to a general. They are supposed to pick up anciliiaries in Rome in my opinion. Normally I would send one along with a general heading in that direction, but it so happened none have been in Rome that were heading in that direction. Then again, this my way of governing, and perhaps my co-consul may see things a little differently.

OCC : I can't seriously believe chirurgeons are a 'critical' asset on battle difficulty medium. Perhaps I am being presumptious here, but really ?

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, I fear we are both quite incapable of understanding each other on the matter of mercenaries. We should let the matter rest, although in the mutual fog of our exchange it is quite possible we are in complete agreement.

On the matter of sending students with churigeons to generals, it would not take four years. Moreover, some fresh air, with a chance to see something of the world, might do the young fellows good. Of course it need not be students if there are other Upper House members available. But I would not delay sending doctors to save lives because a student is not permitted to skip class!

You say that you would not send the students, but the point of motion 10.17 is to mandate you to do so if there is no faster way, whether you would freely choose to or not. It seems that the wording was not clear enough, so I will revise the motion to be more explicit:

revised Motion 10.17 The three churigeons in Rome are to be sent without delay to Marcellus Aemilius, Tiberius Coruncanius and Quintus Libo. Any new churigeons spawned are to be sent to other Lower House members with frontline commands, starting with Numerius Aureolus.

[ooc: in my experience, you can sometimes lose a whole cohort and get it all back with churigeon. On average, I would guess they halve your losses. What can I say, I just can't bear to lose my boys?! Especially if they are Samartian cavalry...]

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

To show I wil make no issue of this, I will make my own chirurgeon available to Numerius Aureolus, whether he retracts Motion 10.17 or not.
I must however state that I think you are trying to take over the role of the first consul by submitting a motion that constrains his freedom to act too much. I once again advise him to retract this motion and Motion 10.18.

OCC: They do not halve your losses, it's much less.

[GeneralHankerchief]

This is not about limiting the Consul's power, father. It is about saving the lives of our brave soldiers who go to war and are wounded in battle. These men, these churigeons, they are utterly wasted spending time with the students in Roma! Not when there is a frontier to defend and there are losses to be reduced! I think you have taken your churigeon for granted, father.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Just for clarification, I suggested Motion 10.18 as a formalisation of the new Senator Eclectic's own motion, which did not follow our formal conventions. Unless our new member dissents, it will be recorded as a motion proposed by him, not Numerius Aureolus.