Palestinians Storm Parliament

[makkyo]

Story

Sanctions are begining to take their toll, at the very least.

[Tribesman]

Sanctions are begining to take their toll, at the very least.
Taking their toll on what ?
Ordinary people .
The west withholds money , the west looks bad , Israel withholds tax revenue , Israel looks bad .
A Hamas minister walking across the border with 20million dollars he raised to pay some of the wages makes Hamas look good .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sanctions are begining to take their toll, at the very least.
Taking their toll on what ?
Ordinary people .
The west withholds money , the west looks bad , Israel withholds tax revenue , Israel looks bad .
A Hamas minister walking across the border with 20million dollars he raised to pay some of the wages makes Hamas look good .

You're correct, of course. Sanctions are rarely effective and never pretty to look at. The elites that are the actual target are usually able to insulate themselves, whereas the common folk in question just get hurt. Sanctions did nothing to remove Saddam, nothing to remove Castro, and will do nothing here.

Sanctions usually produce PRECISELY the kind of pain and suffering that the regime in question can use to fuel anti-X sentiments and further entrench its own power.

The hoped for model is that: sanctions will make things bad for the populace, the populace will therefore exert pressure on leadership for change, the leadership will respond by changing the policy involved to placate their own populace and retain power. This model has more than a few holes in it in practice -- though pitting the populace against their ruling elites might engender a bloody civil war.

A majority of the Palestinian electorate was fed up with Fatah and preferred to support an openly militaristic, anti-Israel political organization as their alternative. Attempting to exert an external "veto" via sanctions is ludicrous.

Actually, I'm beginning to blame -- mentally -- Jimmy Carter for this mess. His well-intentioned and stunningly successful efforts at Camp David brought about an agreement between Egypt and Israel that removed Egypt from armed aggression against Israel. Since this drop in available manpower and combat frontage makes it all but impossible for another Arab-Israeli war to end successfully for the various Arab states, open mass warfare against Israel more or less stopped. Carter managed to undercut the process of mutual bloodletting by which both sides would, after being bled white, have come to some form of mutual agreement among themselves. Carter did not remove the bones of contention from any of the other combatants -- so everything has festered and terrorism and assassination have become the tools of choice for political expression.

Sadly, I begin to fear that the violence must be much worse before all parties agree that the pain is not worth it's continuance.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

nevermind, misread it.

[Brenus]

“Sanctions did nothing to remove Saddam, nothing to remove Castro, and will do nothing here”: You are right on the two points you mentioned. HOWEVER Castro and Saddam did need money from abroad. They exported what they had and survived. But sanctions did work in Serbia (leading to the Serbian Revolution and the fall of Milosevic) and Croatia (leading to the capture of Gotovina). Sanctions worked in South Africa and Libya as well.

“A majority of the Palestinian electorate was fed up with Fatah and preferred to support an openly militaristic, anti-Israel political organization as their alternative”. Right again, however I would recent the fact that my money would be use to finance a terrorist organisation which never hind its anti-western stances and which alternatively will try to kill me or my family if and when possible. HAMAS doesn’t want to negotiate; HAMAS, as a Islamo/fascist (with Nazi accents, time to time) organisation want the destruction of all what I believe.
The Palestinian voted for this organisation. Now, they feel the effect of their choice. What the Donors (and how surprising, most of them are from the Evil West) want is just from HAMAS a declaration including the right of existence for Israel, which will be a road (or a path) to possible negotiation.
Why should we finance people who want to kill us? Let’s travel in Absurdy, and do you think that the Jews would have to finance the Nazis under the pretext they were democratically elected?
So, yes, EU and US have to find an alternative solution… But no money to help HAMAS to secure its dictatureship.

[Reenk Roink]

Why should we finance people who want to kill us?

You mentioned this argument in the other thread too, and you are just plain wrong. Hamas has made clear that they kill civilians, making them butchers and terrorists in my eyes (not far from them is the heavy handed Israeli army which condones collateral damage, and gets into situations where a lot of collateral damage occurs).

But Hamas doesn't want my American blood. Hamas is not al-Qaeda. Hamas spoke out against 7/7. Hamas is only after killing Israelis until the state is dissolved.

So really man, instead of the dishonest "they wanna kill us!" blabber, criticize Hamas on what it really does (it shouldn't be to hard either).

[Crazed Rabbit]

Palestinians vote for terrorists.
Terrorists gain power.
The west decides to stop giving large amounts of money to a terrorist run government.
The terrorist run gov't realizes that relying on massive foreign aid for running a gov't isn't the best idea.
And then this happens...

Can't say I'm that sorry for the Palestinians. They voted Hamas into power, after all.

Crazed Rabbit

[Banquo's Ghost]

Actually, I'm beginning to blame -- mentally -- Jimmy Carter for this mess. His well-intentioned and stunningly successful efforts at Camp David brought about an agreement between Egypt and Israel that removed Egypt from armed aggression against Israel. Since this drop in available manpower and combat frontage makes it all but impossible for another Arab-Israeli war to end successfully for the various Arab states, open mass warfare against Israel more or less stopped. Carter managed to undercut the process of mutual bloodletting by which both sides would, after being bled white, have come to some form of mutual agreement among themselves. Carter did not remove the bones of contention from any of the other combatants -- so everything has festered and terrorism and assassination have become the tools of choice for political expression.

Sadly, I begin to fear that the violence must be much worse before all parties agree that the pain is not worth it's continuance.

Interesting perspective, Seamus. The imbalance of power certainly means one side needn't really consider the peace option. Perhaps we should tool up the Palestinians so we can have a full-on Armageddon for Peace TM.

Mind you, there's a part of me that actually agrees with the premise.

As for President Carter, maybe the fact the voters bounced him from office before he could continue the peacemaking further may have something to do with the 'failure' you identify?

Not easy to solve the entire Middle East in one term, perchance? Maybe the next guy (can't remember who that was, an actor or something?) could have worked on it a bit?

[Divinus Arma]

True, the people get hurt. And then they realize how stupid they are for supporting Hamas, so then they throw the bums out.

Good stuff. I'm pleased to see the sanctions working. Hopefully Abbas can get his acknowledgement of Israel off the ground.

I would love to see a stable and successful Palestine alongside Israel. The world would be all the better for it.

The next step is bringing Islam into the Modern era and out of the stone age. Since there are no other religions being created, then the world may finally have some peace. Damn religious intolerance causes more evil in this world than anything else.

When was the last time a world relgion was created? And guess what: we shall never see another one again. Unless it is eclecticism, which embraces all and asserts nothing. The existential perspective of modern humanity I say!

EDIT; Oh, and if you do not believe that all religions are possible and that nothing is 100% certain than I shall burn you at the stake like the heretic you are, before then blowing you up and cutting off your head.

[Papewaio]

If there is an uprising against Hamas I hope the rebels are better treated by the west then those post-desert storm...

[Tribesman]

True, the people get hurt. And then they realize how stupid they are for supporting Hamas, so then they throw the bums out.

Or alternatively , the people get even more pissed at the west and Israel for being hypocritical about democracy and support Hamas more .

Hopefully Abbas can get his acknowledgement of Israel off the ground.

Would that be the document that Hamas members helped draw up ?
And how do actions that make Israel and the west look bad to palestinians increase support for Israel amongst palestinians ?

[Joker85]

Hypocritical? That assumes we have some duty to give the Palestinians money. There is no hypocricy in telling them elect who you will, but if/when you elect a terrorist government don't expect any help or aid from us.

If the Palestinians want to get angry over it, perhaps they should elect a governmen that doesn't go around blowing up cafes and pizza shops. If they were to do that, they'd have a state by now. If not, they can keep living in shit blaming everyone else for the problems their own votes have caused. If they want to get even more angry, oh well, what are they gonna do, blow themselves up twice?

[Tribesman]

Hypocritical? That assumes we have some duty to give the Palestinians money.
Well the West of course can renege on its commitments to fund the authority that it was undertaking to aid the peace process , it has no obligations whatsoever .Though the blocking of other countries funding for the PA is hypocritical .
And the matter of Israel stopping the money is another kettle of fish entirely , since that is Palestinian money which is a product of the palestinian people and they do have a duty to hand it over regardless of if they like the government or not . Taking something that isn't yours and not returning it to its rightful owner is theft .

[Divinus Arma]

Maybe. But the Israelis are collecting Palestinian taxes within the Israeli territories. That takes infrastructure and resources.

They should simply cease collecting taxes for the Palestinian authority by your argument.

As for the money the Israelis are collecting, they are holding it in trust for the Palestinian authrotiy, not spending it.

[Tribesman]

But the Israelis are collecting Palestinian taxes within the Israeli territories.
What Israeli territories ?
As for the money the Israelis are collecting, they are holding it in trust for the Palestinian authrotiy, not spending it.
Oh I see , the PA said that the State of Israel could hold onto the money until Israel decides it likes the election results ?



They should simply cease collecting taxes for the Palestinian authority by your argument.

[makkyo]

Sanctions are begining to take their toll, at the very least.
Taking their toll on what ?
Ordinary people .
The west withholds money , the west looks bad , Israel withholds tax revenue , Israel looks bad .
A Hamas minister walking across the border with 20million dollars he raised to pay some of the wages makes Hamas look good .

I ment to say that they don't have money to pay their employees, probably due to their sanctions. But why must Palestine's enemies give them economic support in the first place?

BTW, what is Palestine's source of income? I'm curious...

[Tribesman]

But why must Palestine's enemies give them economic support in the first place?

Which enemies ? Israel ,well that would be its obligation as an occupying power under international law that Israel signed up to , plus its agreements on border controls and import/export tax .
As for other countries (and Israel) it is in their interests to support the PA economically . Having the unemployment rate increase from10%to over 50% means a lot of idle people , idle people who get angry are not a good thing . Angry people are a threat both locally and regionally , threats are not good for business , unless you are in the arms trade .
It is in the interests of profit and stability that economic aid is given .

BTW, what is Palestine's source of income? I'm curious...
Ask the Bank.

http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/mna/men...7?OpenDocument
Damn , I provided a link