Turkish antiquities offensive to Muslims

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

well, just one little bit in this article.

Anyway, I found this very strange.

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/intern...in034000c.html

LEN and Mouz and co., what's that all about?

[Redleg]

I wonder why - the inscription seems approiate for a Dungeon somehow.

In the written order, the Culture Minister told museum officials to scrape away the inscription "Inde deus abest," or "Where God does not exist," carved at the entrance to the dungeon of the Castle of St. Peter in the Aegean resort of Bodrum, Hurriyet, Sabah and Milliyet newspapers reported Tuesday.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I wonder why - the inscription seems approiate for a Dungeon somehow.

especially considering that the people who carved it believed in the omnipresence of God too...

[Redleg]

especially considering that the people who carved it believed in the omnipresence of God too...

Well when one is about to be tortured - it makes one wonder about if God is seeing that torture happening.

Rather strange - considering it doesn't seem to be referencing Islam - but the Dungeon itself.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Well when one is about to be tortured - it makes one wonder about if God is seeing that torture happening.

Rather strange - considering it doesn't seem to be referencing Islam - but the Dungeon itself.

yep, the complaint seems to be that it offends Muslims because it says something that denies omnipresence of God but the Christian order that carved it would have believed in the omnipresence of God.

The carving, I like to think of it as being a nice "abandon hope" sign for all the prisoners.

[Redleg]

yep, the complaint seems to be that it offends Muslims because it says something that denies omnipresence of God but the Christian order that carved it would have believed in the omnipresence of God.

Well if you were a Christian about to be tortured by Muslims - one would think that the ominpresence of God was not present in the situtation.

Still can't see how this insults the concept of Religion and Islam in particlur.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[sarcasm on]Maybe I am not the fundmentalistic Right Wing Christian Conservative that some would like to believe that I am, I must turn myself into the Bush Adminstration for an update on my brainwashing - it seems to be wearing off.[sarcasm off]

The carving, I like to think of it as being a nice "abandon hope" sign for all the prisoners.

Yep my thought also.

[Avicenna]

They could always remove the inscription and sell it. It's quite a shame that a 500 year old historical artifact, no matter how much value you might think it has, is going to be destroyed. Surely removing it and placing it in a museum won't offend muslims?

[Fragony]

If it's 500 years old it would be a crime to remove it. I hope this doesn't happen.

[Hurin_Rules]

'inde' usually means 'from that time [forward]' or 'thenceforth'. 'Where' seems a rather loose translation to me. The inscription seems to be saying, 'once you cross the threshhold, God does not exist'.

All 500-year old inscriptions have historical value, and none should be destroyed.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

cheers for the better translation, that sounds even better now.

[LeftEyeNine]

Ok ok, calm down. This is not intended to make another "offensive to Muslims" BS. Remove such books of yours please. It is growing me tired.

In the last election AKP won the elections being the sole governing party. The party is a conservative one, particularly religious (disguised fanatic), rather than national (they are far from being nationalist actually). That prime minister Tayyip Erdoğan has photos kneeling near a sheikh (religious leader of some sect), taken not so long ago.

They have all the ministeries, including Ministry of Culture and Tourism. That decision was made claiming that the words "do not reflect history". I wonder how they decided that -weirdest excuse on the planet ever. We all know that "God does not exist" irritated some spider-minded (we call Islamic fanatics that way) dumb*** and they decided on removing that.

I did get into that dungeon, yes when you imagine yourself blinded and being pushed downstairs, you absolutely feel that "there can't be God there".

But this does not offend me. Noone ever got offended before. That translation plate was always there, and there were no freaks around demonstrating for its removal or that they'd crash and burn down that beauty or something else. AKP is the worst thing happened to Turkey with their blind eyes giving away all incentives to get our ***es into that EU thing. What's more they are overtaking "armchairs" like hell everywhere. The next worst puppet government is that of the Iraqi's. That pretty describes it.

But make sure, they can't do any further -the action is pretty publicized. There is such a great irritation towards the fanatic Islamics lately, especially after that assault to Counil Of State where some freak gunned 5 judges, killling one of them, screaming "We are soldiers of Allah".

[Fragony]

You have some more info on that castle lefteyenine? Sounds like an interesting place.

[Ironside]

Would really want to ask the Culture Minister about what parts of the Koran that have "no historical value". I mean, surely you can remove some words here and there and still maintain the same message.

Never understood those people. What has changed from what your grandparents didn't bother at all with?

Usually you can catch on when something feels stupid by studying the historical note it would leave.
.... After 500 years it was concluded that it lacked historical value and was offensive and thus destroyed.
By a simular note for the Great Pyramids.
.... When they were dismantled by Muhammad 'Ali Pasha and the stones were used to make new river dams in the Nile.
(The chief engineer who wasn't too keen on that project made thorugh calculations that showed that stones from quarries was both cheaper and needed less men, thus stopping the project)

[yesdachi]

Wait a sec, let me put on my surprised face. I wonder if there is anything non-Muslim that wont offend some Muslims.

[LeftEyeNine]

You have some more info on that castle lefteyenine? Sounds like an interesting place.

I visited the place three times. Bodrum is maybe the most known place of holiday to tourists. The castle is on a very dominative position located inwards the sea. There are Italian, English, French, German and Greek towers within the castle. The English tower is said to be the only building constructed by the English out of lands of England, the info says. I may be missing some more info on that. The dungeon is said to be used by the knights of St. John, by the way. The castle was bombarded and damaged by a French battleship in WWI, however it was repaired by the Italians.

[Papewaio]

We all know that "God does not exist" irritated some spider-minded (we call Islamic fanatics that way) dumb*** and they decided on removing that.

Interesting name for fanatics... child molestors are called rock spiders here.

[AntiochusIII]

Wait a sec, let me put on my surprised face. I wonder if there is anything non-Muslim that wont offend some Muslims.

I'm sure LEN's response has already disproved you on that point? After all, hasn't the righteous Right always been crying for the "majority of the Muslim population" to "condemn their fanatics?"

Beautiful castle, by the way. I hope none of the "spider-minded" efforts succeed. Hate to see a historical relic damaged by fanaticism.

[Goofball]

I have read the article twice now, and nowhere in it did I find any mention of any individual or group of muslims calling for the inscription to be erased because they find it offensive.

That is not to say that I don't believe that Islam is not an overly sensitive religion that cannot tolerate any kind of criticism; I do. But the article seems to be jumping to a bit of a conclusion here.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

But the article seems to be jumping to a bit of a conclusion here.

That's why I called for the help of LEN and co. in finding out what it was all about.

[Ironside]

I have read the article twice now, and nowhere in it did I find any mention of any individual or group of muslims calling for the inscription to be erased because they find it offensive.

That is not to say that I don't believe that Islam is not an overly sensitive religion that cannot tolerate any kind of criticism; I do. But the article seems to be jumping to a bit of a conclusion here.

Care to explain why someone is bothering of the effort of trying to remove it otherwise?
It's quite a difference between not bothering to preserve it and activly destroying it and I cannot see any rational decision behind it.

[doc_bean]

That is not to say that I don't believe that Islam is not an overly sensitive religion that cannot tolerate any kind of criticism; I do.

Compare them the to Christian Right, they're no worse in general...

[Goofball]

Care to explain why someone is bothering of the effort of trying to remove it otherwise?

With what I could draw from the article, I can't explain it.

And neither can you.

[Ironside]

With what I could draw from the article, I can't explain it.

And neither can you.

Nope. It simply annoys me when people who's lacking any understanding for historical preservation decides that something is less than useless, with no good reason.

[UglyandHasty]

Its just history revisionism. Not throwing rock or anything, but it look like in the same wave as denying the Armenians holocaust.

[LeftEyeNine]

Armenian Holocaust never happened. But this spider minded minister sits there, we can't change it for now. But it is impossible that they will be able to erase that piece of history. They are pretty opposed.

OT: www.tallarmeniantale.com

[Leet Eriksson]

^ check this out, i fixed the title

[rory_20_uk]

It appears not everyone agrees that it never happened... Linky The military tribunal findings make good reading, as do the documents.

Which websote is true? Who knows? History is based on what survives. The writer is usually the victor.

Evidence for and against can eisly be fabricated either at the time or afterwards.

[BDC]

^ check this out, i fixed the title

Brilliant. :)

[LeftEyeNine]

It appears not everyone agrees that it never happened... Linky The military tribunal findings make good reading, as do the documents.

Which websote is true? Who knows? History is based on what survives. The writer is usually the victor.

Evidence for and against can eisly be fabricated either at the time or afterwards.

One side's manipulated documents can't be something as serious as history. I have always accused my nation of being lazy asses because of staying away from the topic too much. Now we are paying for it, however we still have the chance to tell the world of the biggest lie ever told -assuming that world would like to listen and accept.

[UglyandHasty]

Well for me it is history revisionism. And an incidious one. I wont try to make you change your mind, be assure you wont change mine with a crappy web site. Despite the massive evidence to the contrary, the Turkish government continues to deny that these deaths resulted from mass deportation and eradication efforts by the Ottoman State, and therefore claims that they did not amount to genocide. Instead, it maintains that they resulted from self-defense as most Armenians allied with Russia during the war, civil war, disease and famine, with casualties to both sides. I really respect the germans for how they recognize the past, and still continue. Whatever the winnig side, history should remain the winner ..... in a perfect world.



Erasing writings on monument is still a lesser offense to history. But its still revisionism.