Most under-rated/over-rated unit?

[bamff]

A slight twist on Ave Maximus' thread about the most powerful unit, and inspired largely by a couple of interesting answers to that one...notably Archayon's nomination of Byzantine Horse Archers and Holybandit's nomination of Steppe Cavalry (gotta confess I like these speedy little fellas as well)....I thought I'd throw it open to seek opinions on the most under-rated (and conversely over-rated) units.

I'll start by seconding Holybandit in regards to Steppe Cavalry as massively under-rated - they can be invaluable in speeding around an enemy's flank and striking a killer blow from the rear...

[Mooks]

yay, recoginition at last.

[Martok]

Overrated: Kataphractoi

Don't get me wrong; they *are* good units. They're not all they're cracked up to be, however. They'll overpower just about everything they come across early on, yes; but that starts to abate as other factions gain the ability to train heavier spear units. When fighting the Turks and Egyptians--two of their biggest rivals--the katanks' heavy armor greatly diminishes their usefulness in the desert homes of these two factions. In addition, their slow speed makes them vulnerable to fast light cavalry and mounted archers--two unit types that most of their neighbors possess in abundance. Finally, at 105 florins per year, these guys aren't cheap!


Underrated: Muwahid Infantry

I apologize, but I'm going to monologue for a bit about these fellows. A lot of people that play any of the Muslim factions have said they don't have much use for them, and I admittedly can see why. Many view Muwahids as being redundant, as most of their functions can be performed as well or better by another unit. In addition, some players are turned off by their non-standard size (only 60 men for a spear unit). I understand these concerns, as I used to share them. However....

What Muwahids are good at is allowing your army considerable tactical flexibility. They're fast, have good morale, excellent charge & attack, decent defense, and are deadly versus cavalry. (And even better, they don't cost a bundle!) When you need to quickly adapt formations and/or tactics during a battle, or you want to create an army that is equally good on both defense and offense, then you should definitely be including at least a few units of these bad boys.

Their excellent foot speed means they're actually pretty good at protecting your flanks--this is extremely useful when you have no cavalry (and/or they're otherwise occupied)--and can even make flanking attacks themselves. They can quickly plug any gaps that form in your lines. They're great general-killers if the enemy commander's personal unit is any type of cavalry; they can eat horses for lunch! Although they're only spearmen, they also give a good account of themselves against infantry as well. And of course, they have little problem taking out their fellow spearmen.

Taken in all, I've found Muwahid Infantry to be a very useful, multi-purpose unit. No Muslim army should be without them!


Edit: I daresay, they're even better than camels. [Running away before Mithrandir can ride me down!]

[Archayon]

... Archayon's nomination of Byzantine Horse Archers ...

i reminded my little Byz campaign...
was doing pretty well, but in the south-east i was heavily beaten by the eggies and the turks (somehow they kept surviving, using the eggies for protection).
then, 1 of my provinces was teched up enough to create the Byz HA ...

i built stacks and stacks of them, whiping out the whole south of the map a province a year... in no time, the byz set foot on spanish soil (and the latter didn't like that...)
just shoot everything ... then charge everything ...
(if fire was a bit concentrated on camels, and valour was going up, camels routed before any melee could start ... true, i used some treb archers for sharpshooting some camels)


i didn't see it mention a lot before, but Byz HA almost seem like Feudal knights with bow and arrow to me



Arch

[caravel]

I'd agree with everything stated so far, especially with respect to Kataphraktoi, Muwahid Foot Soldiers and Steppe Cavalry.

[macsen rufus]

Under-rated: I have a real soft spot for Ottoman infantry. Pretty good shooters and can rough it up in melee as well - AP bonus too. They're usually the mainstay of my Turkish infantry arm, with a few Saras and Mwahahahas to deal with the four-legged threats. Tactical flexibility is one of the plus points of the Muslim factions.

Naptha throwers - take some effort, but often well worth it. Great fun watching 12 napthamen chasing off 50 screaming halbardiers

Over-rated: not sure, peasants probably.... I never train them in MTW, have no use for them whatsoever.

[naut]

Under-Rated: Um probably Slav Javelinmen, great for wipping out the nasty HRE.

Over-Rated: Definately Kataphractoi. For the reasons that Martok already stated.

[Sensei Warrior]

Under-rated: Celtic Warriors in Early, High or Late. I've just finished a series of English campaigns, so I have a bit of a soft spot for them. They are available to anyone in Wales and Ireland. They are like cheap Byz Inf. They have cheaper support costs then Peasants. I like building and buffing them in Wales, during Early, while I'm waiting around for the Longbowmen to become available in High. I use them to garrison my Provences, and build cheap armies. Give them some armor and morale upgrades and they get even nicer.

Overated: Kataphractoi, for all the reasons stated above.

[Quietus]

A slight twist on Ave Maximus' thread about the most powerful unit, and inspired largely by a couple of interesting answers to that one...notably Archayon's nomination of Byzantine Horse Archers and Holybandit's nomination of Steppe Cavalry (gotta confess I like these speedy little fellas as well)....I thought I'd throw it open to seek opinions on the most under-rated (and conversely over-rated) units.

I'll start by seconding Holybandit in regards to Steppe Cavalry as massively under-rated - they can be invaluable in speeding around an enemy's flank and striking a killer blow from the rear...

Agreed. The Steppe Cavalry in MTW was the most under-rated unit!

I never used elite units in MTW but from 'elites' I've ever tried, the most overrated are the Longbowmen (vanilla archers are far superior).

[bamff]

Good point Vladimir. Mounted crossbows are also great for whittling down & tiring out enemy knights...horse archers that pack a real punch, if you like...

[bamff]

Another possible "over-rated" (although I suppose this depends on whether anyone does actually use them) - Lithuanian Cavalry.

All the trouble you have to go to if you want to form these units, and their cost, and you wind up with an over-priced mounted sergeant!

What's the go with that?

[Mooks]

Halbediers are the BEST. They are included in any army of mine at any time possible. They slice through calvary like butter, and can take the fight back to infantry. Sure..theyre slow, but put those babys against the enemys HC and they can turn the battle extremely fast. Speaking of that, in all my russian campaigns I use only halbadiers (as heavy infantry), why? Because they can kill 10x theyre number in mongol calvary.

Camels get eating up quickly, srry mithrador, theyre not worth the time. They can rout calvary, but not instantly, so theyre extremely low defense makes them lose numbers quickly.

Another good unit that deserves reconginition....MAMLUK CALVARY!! Fast, armoured, dont tire quickly, and pack a hell of a punch. Easy to build and mass. Abyssian guards are good also.

Off topic- anyone notice how fun it is to have a only calvary army?

[bamff]

When you say "only cavalry army", you do have some mounted projectile units, right? Otherwise spears, pikes, halberdiers and the like would cause you some grief...

Jumping back to the halberdier question and the issue of speed, I suppose that is also a major drawback with both Varangians and Goth Sergeants - although these two have definite morale advantages. Varangians also have the drawback of the time taken to form a unit....having said that, it's hard to label either as "over-rated" because they sure do perform when battle is joined. I suppose it just highlights that every unit has its weak points (yes, Mithrandir, EVEN camels!).

[greywolf]

hey, doesn't anybody like horse archers (any variant)? i like them better than mounted crossbows because they have longer range and faster rate of fire. whenever i can, i try to incorporate 2 or 3 units of these guys to start the battle by whittling down the enemy with concentrated arrow fire. they can outrun any pursuers. and when they've run out of arrows i hold them in reserve and use them to chase routers (alt-tab, right?) or send them in to strike an engaged enemy unit from behind. they're relatively cheap so in a pinch, i use them to screen and delay an enemy attack so i can redeploy my infantry to take the enemy's charge. now that's versatility!

[Martok]

Add my name those who agree with Vladimir about mounted crossbows. I very nearly listed them instead of Muwahids as the most underrated unit. I'm still not very fond of them (I generally don't care for mounted missile units), but there's no denying their usefulness!

Another good unit that deserves reconginition....MAMLUK CALVARY!! Fast, armoured, dont tire quickly, and pack a hell of a punch. Easy to build and mass.

And even better, they get that nice +1 bonus when trained in Egypt.

[Mithrandir]

Halbediers are the BEST. They are included in any army of mine at any time possible.
....
Camels get eating up quickly, srry mithrador, theyre not worth the time. They can rout calvary, but not instantly, so theyre extremely low defense makes them lose numbers quickly.

Oh how I loved to see people bring halberdiers to the field...

they were too slow to catch any cavelry, tired too fast to be of any use, and most important : they have absolutely no morale whatsoever, to upgrade them to V2 (at which you've still don't have a dependant unit) is just a waste of money..

ofcourse I also always brought (besides camels) a nice batch of militia sergeants (v3) which would totally cut through halberdiers & almost most other infantry .

oh the good ol' days when I played online for at least 6 hours a day...