Succession during battle

[Sirron]

I have fought a nice battle for Flanders against the French (me: English, high period, vanilla MTW, expert level) on Saturday night. Very early during the battle the king´s unit (with standard of a general) attacked my troops, but I flanked with feudal knights and feudal sergeants and the king died. I cheered for a second or two, as I had expected the note about the loss of general´s unit. But nothing happened, only the second unit of French royal knights (led by the prince) suddenly changed the banner to general´s with little crown on top of it!

Have you ever noticed such succession in royal line during the battle?

[Roark]

Damn... Didn't know it was built into the game.

So there was no big morale hit on the enemy troops?

[Sirron]

No, French morale was not affected , at all. You can imagine my surprise when the new royal standard appeared and the French kept attacking.

Eventually, after much bloodshed, my troops (actually my king with last of his bodyguards) killed the new king of France...

My king John killed 2 kings of France in a single battle, this mighty deed will be remembered for a long time...

[naut]

Wow, never realised this can happen.

[Sirron]

Actually this change of king/commander during the battle, can give some support to those views (discussed few day ago) that backed the idea of changing command to second best general after the killing/capture of original leader, see thread:

Battlefield Leadership: Shouldn't the "Lieutenant" have some significance?

[caravel]

Actually this change of king/commander during the battle, can give some support to those views (discussed few day ago) that backed the idea of changing command to second best general after the killing/capture of original leader, see thread:

Battlefield Leadership: Shouldn't the "Lieutenant" have some significance?

I've never seen this happen, though I have seen two generals on the field at once. That was a bug.

[Odin]

Regarding the battlefield leadership discussion, I think that a second in command should have some influence once the leader dies. However this situation is very unique, you had the king and the heir in the same battle and the king dies.

I think this is the one exception to the rule of the second in command influencing combat when the leader of the army dies.

This is a new one on me, its a nice surprise after playing the game so long to have a new element pop up....

[Martok]

Well assuming it's not a bug, I guess I shouldn't be overly surprised I haven't heard of this before. I mean, how often do any of us ever send both the king and his crown prince into the same battle?

[Sensei Warrior]

Well assuming it's not a bug, I guess I shouldn't be overly surprised I haven't heard of this before. I mean, how often do any of us ever send both the king and his crown prince into the same battle?

We typically don't send the King and Crown Prince into battle, but the Argonese or the Danes would be a good faction to test this on. With only one Provence, once heirs start appearing it is virtually guaranteed that the King and Crown Prince and alot of other heir apparants would be in the battle.

Depending on the situation you could have a situation of cascading succession, where the king dies and the Crown Prince takes command, and then the Crown Prince dies and the next in line takes his place, etc.

One of you savy King-killers could test this out if you were so inclined. I would do it myself, but I'm terribly bad at the whole king kill/capture thing. I can never seem to time it right.

[Martok]

One of you savy King-killers could test this out if you were so inclined. I would do it myself, but I'm terribly bad at the whole king kill/capture thing. I can never seem to time it right.

Agreed; a pity I'm no better than you are, or I'd try it myself! I may have been playing this game well over 3 years now, but when I manage to capture a royal, it's still usually about 1 part skill and 4 parts dumb luck.

[naut]

Agreed; a pity I'm no better than you are, or I'd try it myself! I may have been playing this game well over 3 years now, but when I manage to capture a royal, it's still usually about 1 part skill and 4 parts dumb luck.

Lol, same here! I just surround him and wait 'til he dies, no skill at all.

[Sensei Warrior]

Agreed; a pity I'm no better than you are, or I'd try it myself! I may have been playing this game well over 3 years now, but when I manage to capture a royal, it's still usually about 1 part skill and 4 parts dumb luck.

I'll second that. I guess we have to wait and hope some wargod like katank, ah_dut or Ironside stumbles upon the thread and decides to help out or poor strategically inept souls.

If I remember my pages history they are a few of the ppl who are very adept at General killing in battle.

[Sethik]

What usually happens to me is that the Princes commit themselves to battle before the king. By the time the King actually charges, most of the Princes' units are already decimated.

[naut]

What usually happens to me is that the Princes commit themselves to battle before the king. By the time the King actually charges, most of the Princes' units are already decimated.

True, as the king hangs back watching the line.

[Ciaran]

I´d think that´s because the princes are considered as mere heavy cavalry, and are therefor used as such, while the King takes the role of the general, whom the AI tends to keep behind.

[Mithrandir]

Best thing to kill a king is to get him stuck between 2 lines of well armoured units, preferably spear-type and then let it rain down arrows on him, as his increased melee (thanks to virtues) stats won't matter than.

[Sensei Warrior]

Best thing to kill a king is to get him stuck between 2 lines of well armoured units, preferably spear-type and then let it rain down arrows on him, as his increased melee (thanks to virtues) stats won't matter than.

Yeah when push comes to shove I use the spearmen vice. It works particularly well with Chiv Sarges or Armored Spears, I think Feudal sarges can do the job as well. One unit from the front to block the charge, the other to flank and pin with 2 archer types, or longbows if you got em raining in death from above.

Of course by the time I get around to this the majority of the opponent's army is no longer a threat.

If you're playing with Missile Cav. send a couple 3 units to shoot at him, and eventually they'll wear him out and make metal pincushions out of them. Although this method usually makes the general rout before he dies, but that has its own benefits.

I just can't manage to do it in the beginning of the battle to see the succession trick Sirron noticed. I got lots of ideas not alot of skills

[Sirron]

The battle I mentioned here was a mere gamble for Flanders at the very start of the campaign. I had attacked and taken Flanders and Ile de France. The defeated army from Flanders and intact king´s troops from IDF retreated to Normandy.

The very next turn the French retaliated and attacked with every single unit from Normandy my army in Flanders (plus the garrison of Flanders castle).

First attack wave led by a king + unit of feudal knights attacked my position, followed after some time by prince and another unit of FKs.

King arrived with great speed butchering my arbalest on his way, but than he got to fight feudal sergeants and received charge of FK and later of mounted sergeants in his side. His fate was sealed by charge of my RK unit led by King John.

The prince arrived in company of foot soldiers as well, so he was able to fight quite long.

I finished battle with 2 royal knights, 4 feudal knights and 7 mounted sergeants + of course some foot units.

This was very close victory sweetened by the death of 2 king of France. I welcomed their passing, as the res of France (Toulouse, Normandy and Champagne) went rebel, and in about 1220 I got rid of the French for good.

They reappeared in Toulouse 5 years later, and I wanted to keep them alive (as taking Toulouse by English early usually brings hostility from HRE/Aragon) but my spies prepared the revolt that brought them down forever + two stack of nice armies, so Toulouse remains my rebel buffer even at this day (1250).

[Sensei Warrior]

Well the French Knights were known for being impetuous, and your battle reflected that very well.

I fought a battle last night with the Egyptians, and the King was leading. I someow managed to press him with a set of Turopoles into a Feudal Sargent/ Templar Knight vice. He died within the first few minutes of the engagement. The rest of the army fled.

I finally kill a King in the beginning of a battle, and no heirs arond to see if I could repeat what happened to Sirron.