WMD Found in Iraq, However...

[Devastatin Dave]

**jumps out of way before Saddam/terrorist apologists stampede into the thread**

[makkyo]

The fact that such a large weapons cache missed the eye of the weapons inspectors sugests a lot more about Saddam's capabilities and intent. I understand how it is possible to Saddam to simply loose track of them, but it is very unlikely considering that his power came from his military. And it is obvious that he uses them. For a peaceful country like the US, when the last time they even used WMD's in a military action was in WWII, I would think that the loss of these things would be more likely.

[Pannonian]

The fact that such a large weapons cache missed the eye of the weapons inspectors sugests a lot more about Saddam's capabilities and intent. I understand how it is possible to Saddam to simply loose track of them, but it is very unlikely considering that his power came from his military. And it is obvious that he uses them. For a peaceful country like the US, when the last time they even used WMD's in a military action was in WWII, I would think that the loss of these things would be more likely.

There were entire research programmes that didn't exist except on paper, as scientists lied to Saddam to get funding. The Iraqi bureaucracy was in a dreadful state, with departments not knowing what each other did due to centralised control from Saddam, and centralised control not being possible due to non-existent information gathering from the outlying departments.

For the reality of Saddam's military, read accounts from the commanders of his Republican Guard, supposedly his most trusted troops, kept in the dark as much as anyone else. Saddam the military mastermind? Hitler in his bunker would be a better comparison.

It's nice to see more objective reporting from the Guardian- Yep, anthrax vaccine is no different from weaponized anthrax loaded into artillery shells.

Yet another editorial passed off as a news story.

Are you deliberately missing the point? The point is that bureacracies throughout history haven't been able to keep track of every single piece of information they were supposed to keep track of. Not even the mighty US administration.

The reason why the US military haven't made much of WMD finds is probably because they didn't suppose the Iraqi government knew about them. There was one IED attack that involved a chemical shell, dated to the Iran-Iraq war. When pressed about this as a justification for the war, the spokesman replied that it was probably looted from a long-forgotten arms dump somewhere, and the design of the IED meant the insurgent himself probably didn't know it was a WMD.

[Aurelian]

Reading from a declassified portion of a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, Santorum said: "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist." - From Fox News, emphasis mine.

The key thing to notice here is that the US has only found degraded munitions in Iraq. That is to say "ex"-WMDs.

The Defense Department knew that Iraq's chemical and biological weapons stockpiles were degraded well before 2003, and that regardless of the continued existence of the shells, they were useless as weapons. Hence, they knew that Saddam didn't possess weapons of mass destruction, but that he might still possess some ex-weapons of mass destruction. Ex-WMDs are not particularly threatening to US security, and were unlikely to scare US citizens into supporting the invasion of Iraq. That is why they talked about unaccounted for stockpiles, but failed to mention that they knew that those stockpiles were useless as weapons.

See how honest they were being in the run-up to war?

According to the Defense Department's own experts, Iraq used crude production techniques for its sarin and tabun nerve agents. They had a shelf life of five years. When shells were found during the first Gulf War, many of them were already leaking. Saddam's anthrax stockpiles would have degraded within three years. Thus, the DoD knew that any Iraqi stockpiles that had survived the inspectors (and the reported destruction of stockpiles overseen by Saddam's defecting son-in-law) were completely useless and non-threatening.

That's why this Republican talk of having "found" WMDs is just more silliness. After a massive effort, all they've found is a few degraded ex-WMDs from the pre-Gulf War period. Not a threat or a rational rationale for war.

Check out:
The Militarily Critical Technologies List Part II: Weapons of Mass Destruction Technologies (ADA 330102), "Chemical Weapons Technology" - U.S. Department of Defense, Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology, February 1998 (updated in 2002).

Do a PDF search for "Iraq" to read the details on the honest assessment of their weapons program by the DoD in '98 and '02.

[Redleg]

The key thing to notice here is that the US has only found degraded munitions in Iraq. That is to say "ex"-WMDs.

Degraded munitions are not ex- WMD's. I could go into the technical specifications about that - but lets just say that the lethality of the rounds are reduced based upon the stability of the agents contained. For instance I remember watching soldiers at Dugway Proving Grounds that walked through some old chemical weapons test sights having to be treated for chemical burns on their skin and along the mucus membranes from 40 year old mustard agent that has been sitting on the desert floor of the Utah high plain desert. Do not confuse military significant muntion with the ability for the munition to still cause damage and death from its chemical makeup.

The Defense Department knew that Iraq's chemical and biological weapons stockpiles were degraded well before 2003, and that regardless of the continued existence of the shells, they were useless as weapons. Hence, they knew that Saddam didn't possess weapons of mass destruction, but that he might still possess some ex-weapons of mass destruction. Ex-WMDs are not particularly threatening to US security, and were unlikely to scare US citizens into supporting the invasion of Iraq. That is why they talked about unaccounted for stockpiles, but failed to mention that they knew that those stockpiles were useless as weapons.

Unaccounted stockpiles were in violation of the 14 United Nations Resolutions.

See how honest they were being in the run-up to war?

The nature of politics is all about misleading to get what the politican wants. Find me an honest politican and I will shake his hand.

According to the Defense Department's own experts, Iraq used crude production techniques for its sarin and tabun nerve agents. They had a shelf life of five years. When shells were found during the first Gulf War, many of them were already leaking. Saddam's anthrax stockpiles would have degraded within three years. Thus, the DoD knew that any Iraqi stockpiles that had survived the inspectors (and the reported destruction of stockpiles overseen by Saddam's defecting son-in-law) were completely useless and non-threatening.

Hmm anthrax - another subject that I remember from my Dugway Proving Grounds experience. A friend of mine father worked on the site back in the 1960's into the early 70's, back when they had to clean up an anthrax area that caused the death of a lot of livestock. Care to guess what area of Dugway Proving Grounds was still off limits up until the last time I looked at a map of the area which was in 1999.

As military significant weapons they were indeed not significant. But don't let that confuse you into thinking that they were completely harmless either. As the article that Hurin posted points out from another Intelligence Official states:

"We were able to determine that [the missile] is, in fact, degraded and ... is consistent with what we would expect from finding a munition that was dated back to pre-Gulf War," an intelligence official told NBC. "However, even in the degraded state, our assessment is that they could pose an up-to-lethal hazard if used in attacks against coalition forces."

That's why this Republican talk of having "found" WMDs is just more silliness. After a massive effort, all they've found is a few degraded ex-WMDs from the pre-Gulf War period. Not a threat or a rational rationale for war.

That is an opinion held by many. Not neccessarily a wrong one - but not necessarily right either. What the stockpiles prove is the conclusion that is reached in the Duefler Report. That there was a systemic attempt by Saddam's Regime to give the illusion that Iraq still had WMD's and could defend itself.

[i]edit to add the paragraph from Hurin's posted article.

[Ser Clegane]

**jumps out of way before Saddam/terrorist apologists stampede into the thread**

Well, according to the report that PJ quoted, there now seems to be an actual risk that terrorists have access to WMDs.

Good job...

[Devastatin Dave]

Good job...

on what?

[Ser Clegane]

On potentially giving the terrorist groups that are now in Iraq access to WMDs.

[Devastatin Dave]

On potentially giving the terrorist groups that are now in Iraq access to WMDs.

I didn't give anybody anything, is this a personal attack? A mod should know better.

[Ser Clegane]

I didn't give anybody anything, is this a personal attack? A mod should know better

Cute...

[yesdachi]

Check our Pete’s site for some more info

Here is a nice quote…

The unclassified summary report of the Army’s National Ground Intelligence Center states that since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 munitions containing mustard or sarin nerve agent. It also states that chemical munitions are assessed to still exist in Iraq.

What bothers me is the fact that this info has been hidden! WTF!

[Devastatin Dave]

Cute...

Sexual harassment now!?!?!? You're making me blush with all this attention.

[Goofball]

I didn't give anybody anything

I hear tell that some of your ex-girlfriends would beg to differ with that statement...

[Devastatin Dave]

I hear tell that some of your ex-girlfriends would beg to differ with that statement...

Some of those gals have got stuff that AJAX can't take off!!!
Why does it burn when I go wee?