Different tactics for the English

[Sensei Warrior]

So, I am building up enemies very quickly, though I am also building ships for future trade and crusades (as recommended by some earlier posts). One odd thing, when I attacked the Argonese, suddenly the Spanish didn't like me anymore. Anyone know why, maybe allied, (though it seemed like they were eyeing their property as well)?

It seems that way in most of my games. If I attack the Argonese or even if they attack me, the Spanish start getting downright mean, especially if they have given the Almos the boot back to Morocco(sp?). Of course it also seems that if Spain has given the Almos the boot, they decide the next smartest move is to push into Europe . Now why the heck would they want to do that?

[gaijinalways]

Well the Spanish are at least neutral now (I have no allies ), but I am slowing building up my farming and navy (except for one ship sunk by the Italians). This was used as a pretext by the Germans to stop being allies (even though the Italians had refused several ceasefire treaties over some 15 odd years), and they preceded to attack me in Venice (routed them) and Milan (another rout, read about it in the suicide and bait thread). I am also purging the Germans mostly with my own troops (added only 3 merc units, 2 cavs and a foot soldier) to raze German provinces as a payback, but it is helping with two matters, weakening the German production facilities (I don't always wait to seige the fort, sometimes many buidings are destroyed already) and fattening my kitty without any battles. Just raze, move, intimidate, and move again. They probably will battle me soon again as I approach their larger provinces, but the Germans have a lot of lower tech units (in Venice they invaded with 1700 plus men, but I don't know how many were peasants, though they had a fair amount of archers and spearmen), and their chances of getting higher tech troops are slowly being destroyed as well as any cash producing elements they had.

Basically I haven't added many provinces, though am considering taking some German weakened provinces later and Aquitaine (still held by the Argonese, who also refuse my regularly refuse my cease fire offers). Of course, the Argonese are a nice buffer zone to the Spanish at the moment.

[caravel]

It seems that way in most of my games. If I attack the Argonese or even if they attack me, the Spanish start getting downright mean, especially if they have given the Almos the boot back to Morocco(sp?). Of course it also seems that if Spain has given the Almos the boot, they decide the next smartest move is to push into Europe . Now why the heck would they want to do that?

The Spanish have a tendancy to backdoor you when you're at war with another faction. Such is the AI...

[gaijinalways]

Decided to drop the Argonese, who are at death's door now as we speak. The Byz, who I had no contact beyond where they roared into Croatia, suddenly attacked my ships. So I entered Greece (vis Crotia) and it took a while to crush it, those Kats and Byz soldiers are tough (luckily only saw 8 varagian guards). Loyalists keep sprouting up too! So now I am wondering if I need to send some troops to rescue them, which may be difficult at the moment as they are on their way out via Bulgaria (no chance for Constanople, a real pity). Have to consider it after the Argonese are snuffed , getting some more mercs is costly, but the HRE peasants keep trying to come into 'my house' .

[gaijinalways]

Took the Aragonese territories and now trying to stregthen my borders. The Spanish turned down my overtures to be allies, but at the moment they seem to be recovering from the last Aloamond reemergence. I have joined my merc troops with my uber general (8 star) and plan to invade going back to Constinanople. Earlier I was near there, but I want to crush it after fighting to standoffs in Bulgaria and Croatia (and semi-razing Greece). Have longbow- men coming as well as arbalasters in Wales . Billmen are the next project, with pikemen aways off yet.

[Sensei Warrior]

The Spanish have a tendancy to backdoor you when you're at war with another faction. Such is the AI...

Too true, although with my last campaign with the English they tried it while I was fighting off HRE. Little did they know I had a very effective army stationed in Anjou to trip them up. It was an attacking army to boot, which had a fair amount of Cav to mop up routers.

The general of that army made sure to send a message to the Spanish by not ransoming any of them back. It broke the Spanish. The Almos saved me the trouble of risking Excomm by picking up the pieces themselves.

Once I settled up with the HRE, I crusaded my way to Egypt with a Horde of Clansmen, Gallowglasses, and Hobbies. Although in the Almos defence it was a little tough getting to Morocco. I've never seen the Almos tech up so fast.

[caravel]

The general of that army made sure to send a message to the Spanish by not ransoming any of them back. It broke the Spanish. The Almos saved me the trouble of risking Excomm by picking up the pieces themselves.

I never execute prisoners on the field. The only thing you can gain from this is dread, and I never see my generals needing or lacking, this attribute. Dread is of no use on the battlefield it affects provincial loyalty and only applies to the faction leader and governors. The most important things to consider are that if you capture, e.g, 1000 men there are 2 possible scenarios:

1) The AI accepts the ransome and pays, this means:

a) You get paid, alot if nobiles or royalty are among those ransomed, you deprive him of funds.
b) He gets alot of battered demoralised troops to support and use again, with lower loyalty. He may have difficulty training new troops as he's just paid a big ransom and has to support this demoralised rabble and their general.
c) He gets back the, possibly, "good runner", and diminished loyalty general. As it used to say in Shogun "let this continue".
d) The rest of his forces aren't going to be happy with the defeat, add the low loyalty ransomed back force to this and you could have the recipe for a good old guerra civil.

2) If the The AI refuses to pay, he loses those men who may well not have gained any vices, and whose loyalty may not have been hit too badly, and it affects loyalty among his generals and could trigger a civil war.

If you had executed on the field the general would gain one of the "butcher" type vices ("scant mercy" etc) which are not all good as some of them affect morale.

[gaijinalways]

The AI has been refusing most of the ransoms this game, so I have executed a lot of the prisoners so I don't have to fight them again. It is true that their morale is generally reduced, though with a new general they may not be such soldiers. As to getting the butcher status, doesn't that also raise opposing armies' dread (with them more likely to flee before fighting)?

[Geezer57]

As to getting the butcher status, doesn't that also raise opposing armies' dread (with them more likely to flee before fighting)?

No, the increased dread has no effect on the battlefield - it only potentially has effects on the strategic map. The "Butcher" line of vices, as you keep repeatedly killing prisoners on the battlefield, culminates in a vice (can't recall the exact name at the moment) that causes your own men's morale to drop when led by that General.

[Ludens]

c) He gets back the, possibly, "good runner", and diminished loyalty general. As it used to say in Shogun "let this continue".

True, but he also gets a "captured"-vice which lowers command but increases morale, especially at higher levels.

[Sensei Warrior]

Wow, I must have really churned up the thread. I will explain the no prisoner idea as there was a method to my madness, which wasn't actually conveyed in the post.

After I finished off the French, I was rebuilding my armies when HRE (who was Excommed by the way) decided they wanted my very lucrative, formerly French provences. Well, I was not in good shape unit-wise when the Spanish backdoor-ed me. The large standing army in Anjou was keeping an equally large HRE army on their side of the border. I was going to use this army to eventually take Burgundy, which is why it was an attacking army. I simply didn't have the men to fight a 2 front war, but I couldn't afford to lose Aquitaine as it was a unit producing provence.

I could also see the Spanish holdings. The Spanish were at war with the Almos, had Leon, Castile, Navarre, and Aragon. Short of some garrisons, the majority of their forces were deployed to attack in Aquitaine. The Almos I could see, seemed to have appreciative numbers.

So I moved the army guarding Anjou to Aquitaine to repel the Spanish, but this army by no means could afford to stay there for long. The troops I had sitting in Aquitaine bordering my allies was small, and most likely couldn't repel a force like that for long. I was in a pinch, and needed to take decisive action.

During the battle, I managed to rout the army early. This did not help. It is not a good idea to rout an army in a war of attrition. My Cav. Heavy army managed to catch a large amount of prisioners, large meaning more than half of the Spanish army.

Here is the idea I was going with. The majority of the Spanish forces were commited to an attack on me, and I am now holding more than half of them hostage. If I ransom them then they will go back to Spain, most likely to attack me again. The next time they attack, I won't have my large army there because it is going to have to go back to Anjou. My commander does not have any of the butcher traits yet.

Here is how the butcher traits work. Each time one of your armies kills prisioners on the field of battle the general of the army gets a butcher trait. This is not to be confused with executing rebels, which is the rough justice traits which are given to your king. The first one is 'Scant Mercy'. It gives +1 Dread, with no ill side effects. The second one is called 'Butcher' which gives another plus to dread, but also starts giving ill effects. I believe it drops the morale of the troops the general commands. I don't know the ones after that, but they are really bad. In my mind that means every general has 1 free pass at killing prisioners, but only one. OK back to the story.

I decide to kill the prisioners. My general gets Scant Mercy, and his dread goes up by 1. The next turn, I move my army back up to Anjou as HRE is moving their army into Anjou. I win that battle. The turn after that, the Almos attack the Spanish in Castile. In the subsequent turns the Almos and the Spanish war with the Almos being victorious.

You are right, I could have ransomed back the Spanish prisioners and gave them a general with the Good Runner vice, and probably a number of their generals would have gotten the Captured vice, which Ludens pointed out is not always a good idea. In turn, I might have been dragged into a long battle of attrition with either Spain (not likely), or with HRE because of having to devote extra men to a devensive war with Spain.

In another campaign, I fought a war of attrition. I won every battle (but the last one) and had tons of cash from ransoming back every single prisioner. The other faction was heaped upon with runner vices. Good Runner, Cowardly etc. In the end I lost the Campaign. Why? Because the other guy could outproduce me in replacing his losses, eventually he shipped in a large army that I couldn't hold back, and after that battle, I was never able to dig myself out of it.

Instead, for one very minor vice, I precipitated a war that resulted in the death of one faction, and the disabling of another (Almos). I did this all without losing a man, agent, or florin. Some would say that maybe the Almos would have attacked anyways, and maybe they would have, but I think I encouraged them to do so.

In another post not to long ago I saw someone post that tactics were the things you use to win battles, stategies are what you use to win the game. I would also add that tactics and stategies can be one in the same. This tactic, to kill the prisoners on the field, was part of an overall stategy to seriously undermine my foe at little cost to me.

[gaijinalways]

I'll have to check as my general is a 8 star and the men under him are very loyal (of course, that pointy sword he has helps too), so up to now, I have no complaints (from the dead prisoners either, as dead men don't tell tales, except to CSI ).

[caravel]

True, but he also gets a "captured"-vice which lowers command but increases morale, especially at higher levels.

Forgot about the captured vice, though this is not a rule. I've had armies generals ransomed back in the past and only one or two units got the vice, and not always the general. There is also the tortured vice which seems to be much less common.

[Ludens]

Forgot about the captured vice, though this is not a rule. I've had armies generals ransomed back in the past and only one or two units got the vice, and not always the general. There is also the tortured vice which seems to be much less common.

Interesting. I recall that my generals always get this vice when I ransom them back. Perhaps I should have a better look. BTW, Captured and tortured are part of the same line of vices. It starts with captured (IIRC -1C +3 morale), goes on to tortured (-2C +6 morale) and ends with traumatized (-3C +9 morale). Someone once told that he tried to get all his top-enerals traumatized. With +9 morale their armies becomes virtually unroutable, making up for the loss in command.