Byzantine question

[Leet Eriksson]

I got this from a book i read about the Arab conquests, a warrior by the name of al Qa'qaa noticed a pecular formation formed by the byzantines during yarmouk he called Faranji(note: not franji or foriegner).

Long story short, it sounded exactly like a phalanx, so help me clear this out, where these faranji the skutatoi? or some other unit?

[edyzmedieval]

Faisal, this is indeed something worth reflecting.

First of all, in the 7th century, Heraclius had Romano-Byzantine armies so the phalanx could be out of the discussion. First Skoutatoi units appeared in the 8-9 centuries, as medium equipped spearmen, able to move fast and reinforce the threatened lines. Slowly, their role improved, becoming the backbone of the Byzantine armies in the 10th,11th and 12th centuries.

Faranji sounds very similar to Varangian but this is definitely out of the discussion, as Varangians appeared in the 10th century.

Another thing, which I consider interesting, is the colourfulness of the Byzantine army. Faranji is a sort of a dialect in Africa, and Byzantines definitely had africans in their army, as they still controled Egypt. But, it might be only my imagination.

As to sum up everything, it's very weird. I never encountered this before.

[Leet Eriksson]

He was pretty vague with the equipment though, they carried long shields, and spears, and were armoured. He said they were the best trained foot soldiers they encountered in yarmouk.

There must be something similiar to that during the 6th-7th centuries

[Prince Cobra]

He was pretty vague with the equipment though, they carried long shields, and spears, and were armoured. He said they were the best trained foot soldiers they encountered in yarmouk.

There must be something similiar to that during the 6th-7th centuries

Not sure but it's possible to be some kind of the stratiots ( the peasants recruited for the army from the themes). Heracles was the first emperor to use the themes and the stratiots. Stratiots were not professional soldiers and buld of the bys armies with huge numbers. But at that time maybe theu were not so much .But I'm not sure at all.

[ArnoldLol]

Not sure but it's possible to be some kind of the stratiots ( the peasants recruited for the army from the themes). Heracles was the first emperor to use the themes and the stratiots. Stratiots were not professional soldiers and buld of the bys armies with huge numbers. But at that time maybe theu were not so much .But I'm not sure at all.

stradiots were mounted units from the balkan weren they

[matteus the inbred]

stradiots were mounted units from the balkan weren they

yes, Albanian refugee cavalry taken into Venetian service after 1468 were called stradiots, elite light skirmishing cavalry.

I think what Stephen Asen was talking about was the Stratiotai, native Byzantine cavalry (often reservists) holding grants of land rents and called up for service whenever necessary. They probably would have fought in fairly deep formations early in the medieval period, but seem to have increasingly relied on skirmishing.

[Kralizec]

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html#laterarmy3

The more heavily armed footsoldier, the so-called scutatus wore a pointed steel helmet and a mail shirt. Some of them may have also worn gauntlets and greaves to protect the hands and shins. The scutatus carried with him a large round shield, a lance, a sword and an axe with a blade at one side and a spike at the other. The shield and the colour of the the tuft on the helmet were of all the same colour for each war band.
Once more, just as with the cavalry, we most imagine the Byzantine infantry as a body varying largely in its equipment from each soldier to the other.

Some issues with the term "phalanx":

Originally it means something like "battle line". The archaic hoplite phalanx was really just a dense body of heavily armed spearmen, and very good spearmen at that.
So pretty much you can call any stretched, dense line of spearmen a phalanx but the term is better reserved for the archaic or Macedonian phalanx to avoid confusion. But the application of a dense body of spearmen with large shields is certainly not uniqe to the ancient Hellenes.

[The Wizard]

Indeed. A classic phalanx, as exercized by the hoplites of the Greek poleis, was nothing but a well-ordered and -drilled shield wall. As such this may be exactly what al-Qa'qaa is implying: a dense formation of men with interlocking shields in defensive position.

[Rosacrux redux]

Indeed. A classic phalanx, as exercized by the hoplites of the Greek poleis, was nothing but a well-ordered and -drilled shield wall. As such this may be exactly what al-Qa'qaa is implying: a dense formation of men with interlocking shields in defensive position.

Although modern historians tend to apply the term phalanx only to the hellenic phalanxes (be it hoplites or sarissa-bearers) the Byzantines post 7th century talk about "spearmen phalanx" themselves. The word in Greeks means just "array" and as such it was used by the Byzantines. Of course for convenience sake, anything post 1st century BC is called nowadays "shield wall" or "spear wall", rather than "phalanx" - truth is, it's basically the same thing. I've read the term "phalanx" in regards to the swiss pikemen too...

[Kralizec]

That's interesting. Do you know if it was a conscious throwback, inspired by the works of historians?

[edyzmedieval]

Excuse me, but Skoutatoi are after Heraclius' period.

Normal phalanx, as we know it, it's definitely out of the period. The spearmen Heraclius' used were a sort of Roman Lanciarii with modified equipment, and trained differently, because they were the backbone of the army.

Rosacrux, Swiss Pikemen really formed a modern phalanx, trusting their pikes just like a phalanx, and on their flanks, they had musketeers to guard them.

A shield wall is totally different from a phalanx. A phalanx is a mass of 6m spears or iron Sarissa and men, gathered tight, to attack and defend at the same time. A shield wall is a complex "wall" of spears, which is much vulnerable than the phalanx, but much more mobile.

[Watchman]

I've seen the word "phalanx" used to describe everything from the shieldwall spearmen of ancient Sumer, Egypt and sundry through the Greek hoplites and Hellenic pikemen to Dark Ages spearmen and eventually the Medieval pikemen. In short, close-order heavy infantry with some sort of spear as the primary weapon, although curiously enough neither the Japanese de facto pikemen of the Sengoku Jidai period nor various spear-toting Chinese and Korean infantry never seem to attract the label. Personally I'd make a point of always defining whether the term is used to describe the "international standard" of spearmen with shields or the rarer pike phalanx, but obviously a fair few authors/translators/whatever don't seem to think likewise which at times leads to some confusion.