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  1. #1
    Retired Member matteus the inbred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantine question

    Surprisingly the Wikipedia page on Byzantine battle tactics is quite extensive and references all the same primary sources. It's possible that al Qa'Qaa was even referring to a Byzantine infantry attack in wedge formation. Further cross references on the subject of phalanxes bring up references to the skoutatoi using it, or something very like it. That's good enough for me.

    Some evidence from these references also suggests that Imperial Roman legionaries could and did use phalanx tactics in the eastern theatres of war, so I think it's likely a continuation or innovation of the tactic rather than an invention.
    Presumably the Greek term remained the same, or they used the term for a wedge, whatever that might be (since their cataphracts also usually fought in wedge formation), as the Byzantine Empire was Hellenized in language terms by Heraclius.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Byzantine question

    Phalanx is a very general term as I've already said. Depends on the context as well. Anna Comnena uses it about 60 times in "The Alexiad" and remember that it was written in the 12th century, so not that many "skutatoi" around.

    BTW, when referring to a wedge, the classical term for a narrow front attacking formation is "keras" (κέρας), which literally means horn.
    Last edited by L'Impresario; 06-27-2006 at 17:07.
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  3. #3
    Retired Member matteus the inbred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantine question

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Impresario
    Phalanx is a very general term as I've already said. Depends on the context as well. Anna Comnena uses it about 60 times in "The Alexiad" and remember that it was written in the 12th century, so not that many "skutatoi" around.
    Yes, a good point. I recall from doing Crusades history that Anna Comnena had a habit of 'archaizing' sometimes in her work, ie. using archaic and out-of-date terms for things, and also romanticizing on occasion.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantine question

    Quote Originally Posted by matteus the inbred
    Surprisingly the Wikipedia page on Byzantine battle tactics is quite extensive and references all the same primary sources. It's possible that al Qa'Qaa was even referring to a Byzantine infantry attack in wedge formation. Further cross references on the subject of phalanxes bring up references to the skoutatoi using it, or something very like it. That's good enough for me.

    Some evidence from these references also suggests that Imperial Roman legionaries could and did use phalanx tactics in the eastern theatres of war, so I think it's likely a continuation or innovation of the tactic rather than an invention.
    Presumably the Greek term remained the same, or they used the term for a wedge, whatever that might be (since their cataphracts also usually fought in wedge formation), as the Byzantine Empire was Hellenized in language terms by Heraclius.
    I don't think we can speak of continuity between late imperial legionaries and the skutatoi that later evolved. The Eastern empire went heavy on cavalry after the battle of Adrianopolis and the infantry that they kept became fewer and lighter. By the time of Heraklious almost all Byzantine infantry would have been archers.

    My best guess is that when the Arabs started nibbling away Byzantine possesions, they raised a host of spearmen ad hoc, maybe with a touch of inspiration of earlier Roman or Hellenic infantry, but that these were not called skutatoi- Romans, including the Byzantines seem to have had a conservative attitude when it comes to military terminology, so such a name would not come into existence overnight. Compare the Roman hastati, who did not use the hasta spear- the terminology probably stems from the classification a specific segment of the population had when Rome was still employing hoplites.
    Last edited by Kralizec; 06-27-2006 at 21:40.

  5. #5
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantine question

    I once read the manipular front-line guys first carried a javelin called something like hasta lancea (fairly literally "throwing spear", if my very poor Latin skillz are even close to the truth), as different from the larger close-combat hasta used by the heavier troops. The name apparently stuck around to cause some confusion later on when the only folks with something called hasta were the triarii...

    Apparently the Byzantines (who seem to have had a habit of recycling old words, probably because they thought those were prestigious or something) also happily called about three different types of siege engine helopolis over some three or four centuries. Go fig.
    Last edited by Watchman; 06-28-2006 at 10:49.
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  6. #6
    Retired Member matteus the inbred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantine question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    I don't think we can speak of continuity between late imperial legionaries and the skutatoi that later evolved.
    No, I think you're absolutely right, I don't think there's any evidence that direct or conscious continuity was involved. They were equipped to deal with different enemies I think. Probably more a case of institutional memory resulting in a recycling of terminology, as Watchman says.
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    Default Re: Byzantine question

    Scutatoi or Scutarii the Byzantines called all the basic infantrymen armed with the Scuton (hellenized form of the Roman Scutum), the typical oval shield we see all around in the Byzantine world.

    So, no, they did not appear after Heraclius. They have been mentioned in sources from the 5th to the 11th century, either as Scutatoi or as Scutarioi (basically meaning the same thing). The difference of the post 7th century Scutatoi with their predecessors is the length of the spear. Apparently, in the early 7th century the Scutatoi reequiped with a much longer spear, up to 3,5 meteres long (they had a variety of weapons previously, even darts - martzibaboula - and their spear was not longer than 2 meters, and in many occassions they didn't even have a spear!), the Skuton "grew" considerably and the Skutatoi of the era looked more than Greek hoplites/phalangites than anything else.

    But I have to insist: the ancient Greek phalanx (hoplite or macedonian) is just a shield wall/pike wall respectively, with some unique qualities, not something completely different altogether.
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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantine question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    I don't think we can speak of continuity between late imperial legionaries and the skutatoi that later evolved
    There's only a small continuity(if it can be called like that). Byzantine armies evolved from Roman Lanciarii to the Skoutatoi we know.

    It's a matter of time and technological progress.
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