Yari Ashigaru or Yari Samurai

[Dexter]

Thanx fo the links

I had no time to play recently so my campagne is still far from finished. (Oda 1550)

Personaly having played the game for manny hours ( Weeks, years, once even for 6 monts exclusivly SHOGUN ... LoL ) i decided to make it more difficult ... so the easyest way was to increase unit size ... at first it was a disaster .... double upkeep, 2 seasons training... it was then i had to use more ashigaru then samurai ... specialy whit Shimazu ( 1530 / 1550 not Sengoku jidai) ... 3 provinces ... no koku .... so i used the ashi ...
Yari Ashigaru or Yari Samurai was the real question here .... 120 samurai ore 240 ashi ... to prevent rebellion i choose the ashi ... still there were rebellions ... and ashi gaind honour ... lots of honour ... then i made the "mistake" to become christian ... more rebellion ... ...
whanting to add Yamashiro to my land i had to fight sohei ... as christian this was not so hard as my ashigru did not rout ( they were far from the quality of Oda`s ashi ... 2 ore 3 honour and 1 weapon ... thats all ... if i remember correcly i had ony 1 ashi unt of some 90 men who had honour 7 ... 5 + 2 from general ... this unit was orriginaly some 5 120 ashi ... but gaining honour and loosing 10-20 men per battle this is what was left of them ... so i merged them ) as they did not get morale penalty for attacking ore being attacked by sohei ...
The problem whit sohei is that they imply this penalty to samurai as well ... the higer there honour the higher the penalty ... not speaking of there combat skills ... here i found that ashi supported by archers ( had 3 archers 2 no-dachi and 8 ashi + genaral son yari cav) can beat sohei ( 6 units sohei whom had fighting xp whit Oda ... so there were "only" 590 in total, but whit honur 3 - 4 ... so !!! ... they were supported by archers 4 - 480 and 1 yari samurai 96 - i dont remember exatly but this is close to it .. +/- 5 men ) ... in this battle i made a terrible mistake as i did not use the no-dachi to flank ... from 240 only some 100 were alive after the battle ... even ashi sufferd as of 930 ( 7 full 120 and the 90 ) only 580 lived to see another day ...
but here i found that even sacrificing ashi to frendly fire it is worth it as you can kill even the mighty sohei .. ... tried the tactic whit Oda .... 4 ashi + 2 archers vs 3 monks + 2 archers = i win Ai lose ...

don`t get me wrog i like yari samurai ... but sometimes ( specialy whit large unit size ) it is hard to have sufficient man to secure and expand ... facind incredible odds like Takeda whit 1500 men Hojo whit 980 men and Imagawa 870 men attacking your force of 1720 men in Shinano ... most of youe men are ashi and still you win the battle has proven to me that ashigaru are worth it .. they are the weakest unit in the game but there are wery adaptable ... and not hard to replace as sohei ..

some math

120 sohei = 1000 koku upkeep 120 koku
600 ashigaru = 1000 koku upkeep 300 koklu
600 yari samurai = 2400 koku upkeep 600 koku
600 sohei = 5000 koku upkeep 600 koku

do you have enough koku ??? whit Shimazu, Mori, Oda, Imagawa ??? not Sengoku Jidai ....

well i like to play a "secure" campaigne so i have my borders defended ... most whit ashi ... dont like it when the Ai attacks my rear ... as whit the above mentioned clans ( ok exept Shimazu if you dont have ports ... the Ai likes to attack here a lot ) it is hard to get the necesary koku ...

To all Shogun players : HAVE FUN WHIT A GREAT GAME !!!

[Drisos]

Personaly having played the game for manny hours ( Weeks, years, once even for 6 monts exclusivly SHOGUN ... LoL )

I've been playing shogun exclusively (expect for a few hours here and there very ocasionally) for years and years as well. but I don't have that much time to play computer games so that is.. mostly 1 hour a day.

some math

120 sohei = 1000 koku upkeep 120 koku
600 ashigaru = 1000 koku upkeep 300 koklu
600 yari samurai = 2400 koku upkeep 600 koku
600 sohei = 5000 koku upkeep 600 koku

do you have enough koku ??? whit Shimazu, Mori, Oda, Imagawa ??? not Sengoku Jidai ....

hmm that might indeed be another good idea. I always disliked the 120 setting because proper manouvres in battle.. such as flanking are a lot harder with it. makes the battles less important in the campaign. but I think it is indeed harder.. never really tried it out though so don't know if I would still manage to keep enough koku.

[Dexter]

[QUOTE=Drisos]I've been playing shogun exclusively (expect for a few hours here and there very ocasionally) for years and years as well. but I don't have that much time to play computer games so that is.. mostly 1 hour a day.

Me too ... now that i`m not a student anymore ... got to work ...

Well at weekend perhaps ... 4-5 hours ( love this game )
Afternoos well if i`m lucky 2-3 hours ... at best

Flanking works exelenty whit large units ( 120 / 100 ) ... the formation is the most important here ( best is whit cav in wedge ) ... set ashigaru 6 ranks deep and samurai in 5 .... ore if you are certain you will win then 4 ranks .. archers work wongerfull whit 6 ranks deep .. but if you have 3 - 4 units place them on after the other close as posible in 4 ranks deep ... works like you have one huge unit of 480 archers in 16 ranks ... rain of arrows ... ....

oh and dont forget to use a lot hold formation whit / ore hold position ...

[Drisos]

The problem with flanking I was referring to is the size of the units. It takes them more time to walk past the enemy flank and attack when they are the double size.

I use hold formation very rarely (at least, in SP.). I usually rout the entire enemy army at once so it's ok for my men to chase them. If not the entire enemy army routs yet, I use the faster units that have already finished their opponent to attack the 'still fighting' opponent.
Hold Position I do use a lot.. because the AI rarely attacks me the flank, and I usually do it to him. and I also have more ranged armies then the AI.

[caravel]

The problem with flanking I was referring to is the size of the units. It takes them more time to walk past the enemy flank and attack when they are the double size.

I use hold formation very rarely (at least, in SP.). I usually rout the entire enemy army at once so it's ok for my men to chase them. If not the entire enemy army routs yet, I use the faster units that have already finished their opponent to attack the 'still fighting' opponent.
Hold Position I do use a lot.. because the AI rarely attacks me the flank, and I usually do it to him. and I also have more ranged armies then the AI.

Do you have hold position and hold formation switched in that post? I assume so, because you speak of your men "chasing", which refers to hold position.

I always switch my Yari Samurai and Yari Ashigaru into hold formation when attacking cavalry though not otherwise. When in a defensive position I always use Hold position to stop them drifting away. As to Ashigaru, I use them only as garrisons, while they are superior to the peasants in MTW (Ashigaru are spearmen wheras MTW peasants are technically swordsmen, though so bad as to be practically useless.) they still have poor morale and are statistically inferior to Yari Samurai. As noted earlier the Yari Samurai are Elite so they are unaffected by Ashigaru routers. Once one unit of Ashigaru breaks the others will likely follow. I suppose you could find a niche for Ashigaru once well upgraded and with a good general in the later stages of the campaign, though by then you should be minted and not need to save koku that badly.

[Drisos]

Is Hold Position the 'button' between 'engage-at-will' and 'skirmish'? If so, yes, I've switched them above. I'm dutch and have the dutch version.. I've been in doubt on switching these or not for a while lol..

[Dexter]

Do you have hold position and hold formation switched in that post? I assume so, because you speak of your men "chasing", which refers to hold position.

I always switch my Yari Samurai and Yari Ashigaru into hold formation when attacking cavalry though not otherwise. When in a defensive position I always use Hold position to stop them drifting away. As to Ashigaru, I use them only as garrisons, while they are superior to the peasants in MTW (Ashigaru are spearmen wheras MTW peasants are technically swordsmen, though so bad as to be practically useless.) they still have poor morale and are statistically inferior to Yari Samurai. As noted earlier the Yari Samurai are Elite so they are unaffected by Ashigaru routers. Once one unit of Ashigaru breaks the others will likely follow. I suppose you could find a niche for Ashigaru once well upgraded and with a good general in the later stages of the campaign, though by then you should be minted and not need to save koku that badly.

My writing is not the best neither ... know the words dont know how to write them down ..

... have you ever used unit size 120 ore 100 ??????? ... if you are lucky you can pay all your samurai ( 1 samurai 1 koku upkeep but not the training ... "cheapest" are yari samurai and 120 cost you 400 koku ! ... whit 80 ( unit size ) there is no problem ... but if you play the other two ( 120/100 ) you will see what i mean .. specialy if you need to train replacements .... and you only have some 1500 koku ... start in 1550 ... Oda ( if expert will become stronger then you ) and Hojo ( lots of Ashigaru and archers + rich land ) will be ... how the heck has he some 6000 to 7000 men ??? ( 16 x 120 = 1920 ) that is 4 full armys ... "Once one unit of Ashigaru breaks the others will likely follow. " nope ... DRILL DOJO !!! helps a lot ... not speaking how it improves your samurai ...

Sorry Drisos ( you speak german ? i do ... a lot better the my TV english ) but for me it works ... 120 flanking .. so i kill 1000 lose some 100 - 200 ( if not paying enough attantion to it then 400 - 500 at worst ... not good ... drink koffe to be able to pay ore if too sleepy ... DONT PLAY !!! get some rest ... )

ps : let the ashi die not your samurai .. they worth much more ( even in koku !!! )

use 100 ore 120 ... maybe you have a better method to get koku ??? ( starting 1530 / 1550 / 1580 not Sengoku Jidai ) ... pls tell me !!! pilaging works ... at least untill you destroy everithing .. but what then ??? ( skorched earth ? ... nope i dont like that )

Anny comment / opinion is welkome !!!

Thanx ...

[caravel]

Is Hold Position the 'button' between 'engage-at-will' and 'skirmish'? If so, yes, I've switched them above. I'm dutch and have the dutch version.. I've been in doubt on switching these or not for a while lol..

No worries, I thought for a moment you had a new strategy of always using Yari's on "engage at will", the default for swordsmen in MTW. By "Hold formation" I'm referring to the individual men in a unit not engaging the enemy individually and turning into a disorderly "swarm", but staying in their formation and moving to fill the "gaps" when men are killed. This is the default for spearmen in MTW. "Hold Position" is the option that stops your men chasing routers. Instead they return to their defenisve positions. With STW "Engage at will" is the default for all units except archers/horse archer units.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I always put yari's on "engage at will", unless they are fighting monks and I need them to hold out for a while until I flank the monk unit. They are quite capable of getting kills.

[caravel]

I always put yari's on "engage at will", unless they are fighting monks and I need them to hold out for a while until I flank the monk unit. They are quite capable of getting kills.

I would have though they'd be better on hold formation vs cavalry though?

[Drisos]

. By "Hold formation" I'm referring to the individual men in a unit not engaging the enemy individually and turning into a disorderly "swarm", but staying in their formation and moving to fill the "gaps" when men are killed.

ah ok. Then I did indeed switched these. Thanks for the info

[Dexter]

Against cav hold formation and position is better until enough of them die .. morale is down and then engage ( rage ) at will !!!
whit ashi ... hold formation is absolutly necessary ! even ( specialy ) if you flank whit them .... then wen the enemy is almost broken all out attack !!! timing is critical here ... to soon engage at will and bye-bye ashigaru ... to late and much less killing .... this way only ashi kill sohei .. 3 vs 2 works ... not 1 to 1 ... 4 vs 2 is ideal but nothing is ewer ideal in the middle of a fight ..


ps : i like ashigaru ... little "stupid" "peasants" willing to fight and die fore me !!!
2. who needs the mighty samurai when you kow that the ikko-ikki manged to defeat more then one samurai army !!! ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikko-ikki ... Kaga ... Ise ... and so on

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I would have though they'd be better on hold formation vs cavalry though?

Hold formation is -2 attack and +2 defense. I prefer to kill quickly, especially against cavalry where you won't be losing many yari sam anyway. The sooner you route the cav unit the better.

[caravel]

Hold formation is -2 attack and +2 defense. I prefer to kill quickly, especially against cavalry where you won't be losing many yari sam anyway. The sooner you route the cav unit the better.

Ok, now I understand. I tend to use Yari Samurai mainly defensively. When attacking infantry I take the off hold formation, though with cavalry I leave it on for the initial charge then turn it off once it they become engaged. I tend to use a 2 or three rank line formation and turning off hold formation after the unit engages with the enemy cavalry unit causes them to "wrap around". Sometimes if the enemy cav has higher honour I tend to use the Yaris only defensively, on hold formation, and bring up a flanking attack.

[Dexter]

Hold formation is -2 attack and +2 defense. I prefer to kill quickly, especially against cavalry where you won't be losing many yari sam anyway. The sooner you route the cav unit the better.

this only aplies to samurai ... ashigaru gain bonuses from formation "commands"
tested it a lot ...
and if you have a +2 sword upgrade ( better "weapons" = +2 attack ) so the effect to samurai -2 attack is nullified ...

[_Maximus_]

Put the cavarly under Yari spears and everything will be fine! Of course an upgraded Yari units are recommended!