Viking Units overpowered?

**Sethik** · 05-21-2006, 21:14

I'm playing the Danes in Early in BKB's super mod. I have just completed my conquest of Gaul and England, with relative ease. If I was so tempted I could probably force my into Iberia or Central Europe with little difficulties. The reasons for this easy spread are the amazing early viking units.

Huscarles have sometihng along the lines of 8 attack and defense as well as fantastic morale. Add to this their relatively light tech expenses (an axesmith workshop and an armoror are that is required) and you have a fantastic unit to swarm all of Europe with. They can cut a swath through spearmen and swordsmen alike. They also have armor piercing which gives them a little bonus against all armored troops (including Royal Knights). With sufficent cavalry and ranged support Huscarles are nearly unbeatable.

I don't think there are any units available so early that pack so much punch. The only units I can think that are available so early in the early campaign are the Varagian Gaurd. But they require far more tech and cash to build. The only reason they are even around is because Byzantium is highly developed from the start.

Are there any units that can provide a suitable countermeasure against these Vikings Raiders?

Edit: Now that I think about it, the Huscarles advantages are balanced by the Danes' and Vikings' other weaknesses. They have almost no significant anti-cavalry troops as well as pathetic missile troops. The majority of my military campaigns have been supplimented by mercenary missile and anti-cav troops.

**Scurvy** · 05-21-2006, 21:20

it depends, inf unit-unit i think huscarles are pretty unbeatable (although maybe varangian guard for byz than i doubt the danes would ever meet in early) but they arent very fast, so you can kill them with hoirse archers and even light cavalry if you have time... when used in groups of 4-5 and flanks well protected they are pretty much unbeatable, and i thinkm only varangian guard are a match in early...

(sorry about bvadly formatted post, but i was thinking as i typed)

**King Ragnar** · 05-21-2006, 22:25

Well they are powerful and not really anything in western europe will beat them, but if you push east, they will be less powerful when you meat the Cumans or Byzantines.

**Sethik** · 05-21-2006, 22:58

The only reason I can see of them losing their affect is them being flanked and surrounded and even then they'll put up a pretty decent fight. The Cumans and the Byzs might be able to do that with their superior cavalry, but a balanced army should also have its wings protected with cavalry. If their flanks are protected they can turn into a real meat grinder.

**Scurvy** · 05-22-2006, 09:01

hmm, i think javelins are very effective against them, but its hard to get more than 2 or 3 volleys to shoot in one go :D

**King Ragnar** · 05-22-2006, 10:16

Originally Posted by Sethik

The only reason I can see of them losing their affect is them being flanked and surrounded and even then they'll put up a pretty decent fight. The Cumans and the Byzs might be able to do that with their superior cavalry, but a balanced army should also have its wings protected with cavalry. If their flanks are protected they can turn into a real meat grinder.

True but what good cavalry do the norse have in good numbers? They wouldnt put up much of a fight against the superior horses of the Steppes

Also you have the Cuman Infantry and steppe infantry armed with bows that should be able to inflict some damage before they engage.

But i do love the Huscarls as well i think i have about 5 merc units of them in my cuman army

**caravel** · 05-22-2006, 13:05

The Viking Huscarles are quite a bit overpowered in my opinion. In vanilla MTW the standard Viking units were some of the best infantry available in early. With these at your disposal there is no real need for FMAA. The Danish Huscarles added to the medieval campaign by the VI expansion seem to inbalance the game.

I was playing a VI campaign as the picts (again!) a few days ago, which I gave up on eventually. The Vikings invaded Domon with all their royals and I decided to try and isolate them there and counter attack, and began sinking as many of their longboats as possible. This took a while of course. Eventually I sent an aprox 800 strong force of pictish cavarly (+1 valour) crossbows, celtic warriors (+1 valour) and some spearmen to deal with an approx 200 strong force of huscarles and thralls. The crossbows shot the 1 complete huscarle unit down to about 70-80 men. Then they pulled back, the Celtic warriors (about 2 units) then charged at them downhill, and the Pictish cavalry flanked (2 units). It took a while for the thralls and another battered unit of huscarles to join up, but when they had done, the first unit had done it's work, and just a handful of my men were routing off the field...

All my tactics seemed fine, but these supermen don't care about tactics. I've charged huscarles at Feudal Knights uphill and won easily. The problem is that they kill so much and gain valour quite quickly, they're also elite, so routing is rarely an issue. Add a six star general to that and you've got an almost unstoppable killing machine.

**Sethik** · 05-23-2006, 00:54

Originally Posted by King Ragnar

True but what good cavalry do the norse have in good numbers? They wouldnt put up much of a fight against the superior horses of the Steppes

Also you have the Cuman Infantry and steppe infantry armed with bows that should be able to inflict some damage before they engage.

But i do love the Huscarls as well i think i have about 5 merc units of them in my cuman army

Yeah, that's why I mentioned in my original post that the Viking Factions are offset by their lack of any effective missile, cavalry, and anti-cav troops. This is why in order to build an effective Viking army you need to rely heavily on mercanaries for missiles and decent cavalry.

**The Grand Inquisitor** · 06-20-2006, 23:36

Originally Posted by Sethik

Huscarles have sometihng along the lines of 8 attack and defense as well as fantastic morale. Add to this their relatively light tech expenses (an axesmith workshop and an armoror are that is required) and you have a fantastic unit to swarm all of Europe with. They can cut a swath through spearmen and swordsmen alike. They also have armor piercing which gives them a little bonus against all armored troops (including Royal Knights). With sufficent cavalry and ranged support Huscarles are nearly unbeatable.

Actually, its a 4 armour piercing attack and 4 defence. SiculoNorman Footknights have a 5 attack and a 4 defence plus large shield - that is comparable. Klibonophori have a way better attack and defence and are mobile. Balkan Warband have a reasonable attack (2 plus supporting ranks), and have a good defence - 3 plus large shield plus supporting ranks, and have a large frontage. Balkans will hold up a danish axe army, while hurting it, long enough for cavalry to sweep around the rear.

The beauty of MTW is there is no uber unit. The right tactics and troop mix will expose each unit's weakness.

**Sethik** · 06-21-2006, 00:53

I guess it's because I was reading the stats when they were under one of my better generals. Even so, SiccloNorman Knights only have 40 men per unit so the Huscarles can easily surround them. Also arn't Balkans Infantry armoured? The Huscarles would get a bonus in that case.

I don't play that many eastern factions in early so what are Klibonophori?

**Deus ret.** · 06-21-2006, 12:09

A cavalry of the Byzantines, you have to play either the Super mod or the XL mod to get them, though. They're quite powerful, with katank-like heavy armour, bows and an armour piercing attack....which makes them one of the most formidable units for the Byz. Their only setback is that they're only available in Early and High (in XL, that is).