using rebel lands as buffer zones

[gaijinalways]

In my current campaign as the English in 1124 (Expert, vanilla MTW), I have raided some German and Italian provinces, with rebels sometimes moving in. Sometimes I prefer to leave these as rebel lands which can provide buffer zones to enemies and slow neighbors from coming as they need to attack the rebels to get access to me. I was wondering when players decide to grab the rebel lands, and when do you let them be?

In my case some of the rebel lands I couldn't hold and didn't want to as they are non-productive lands (no resources, not great farm lands). I am considering grabbing one for a trade item and some income, though I am also considering letting it lie, though it would be another coastal area, (provance I believe), so that may have some advantage as a place to build ships.

When do you create rebel lands as buffer zones or for other reasons, perhaps as training grounds?

[Sensei Warrior]

I'll take a stab at this as best I can.

I do not really go out of my way to make rebel lands, but I'll tell you the reasons why I capture any provence, rebel or not. I'm pretty sure that my reasoning will be universal so it will fit for deciding on capturing a rebel provence.

1. The provence has strategic merit. It sits at a natural chokepoint, or is easily defended. It might shorten up my "exposed" provences, meaning the ones that border another faction. If that provence is controlled by rebels then I probably won't take the provence. I have never encountered rebels attacking another provence, meaning the rebels in the provence of Wales won't attack Wessex. In this case the rebels gives the provence more strategic merit, another faction will have to defeat the rebel army to occupy the provence therefore the provence is harder to gain. This seems to be the reason why you make buffer provences.

2. The provence has economic merit. It has trading goods, or good farm lands, aka its a money maker. I will also take it if when the appropriate buildings are built it will significantly reduce the maintenance costs of my fleets. In this case, I will take the provence when it is convienant for me. If the provence is controlled by rebels I will try to purchase them, thus giving me an automatic garrison. If that's not feasible then conquering is acceptable.

3. The provence has tactical merit. It has a valor bonus for units I use like Chiv Knights in Toulouse, units that are available no where else like Galloglasses in Ireland, or the provence has IRON. Depending on various factors, like how much I use the unit or how good the unit, will dictate how quickly I will gain the provence rebel or not. A provence with Iron will be assimilated as quickly as possible.

There are some minor considerations as well. In a GA game I try to keep a moderate size kingdom. I will not go on a conquering spree so I won't take amy provence unless it will clearly be an asset.

In a world domination game one thing might save the rebels. If I remember correctly rebels will trade with you if they have the appropriate buildings. In that case, if there is a provence with the appropriate buildings controlled by the rebels I would go out of my way to keep them rebel so I have someone to trade with in the late stages of the game, when money gained from trading is shrinking. I say would, because I just thought of it, so I haven't tried to see if it would work.

I hope I answered your question, and I will apologize if the post was a little to lengthy.

[macsen rufus]

So long as it fulfills the strategic plan, a rebel province is obviously just itching for some good governance from my munificent and glorious empire "Thou shalt not suffer a rebel to live" and all that.....

In my analysis rebel armies fall into two categories: 1: easily whupped, therefore not much of a barrier to my enemies; or 2: headed by a good general, but being a rebel he is (relatively) easily bribed and therefore would be a threat in the hands of the enemy. Either way, I don't hold with the "buffer zone" theory, but as I usually play in Domination mode rather than GA that may colour my analysis - the only reasons I apply for NOT conquering a province are 1: it would be too vulnerable or weaken my border armies, or 2: I don't want to go to war with its current owners (yet).

The other big threat of creating/maintaining rebel lands is the dreaded re-emergence. A province that one year has a paltry handful of grey peasants may the next harbour ten stacks of a once-vanquished enemy. Not great on your border, as this cash-strapped re-emerging faction will be looking to expand!

Contrary to Sensei Warrior's experience, I HAVE encountered rebels attacking. It's not common, but also it's not impossible. It seems more likely to occur where a rebel faction already controls more than one province. It's not wise to turn your back on rebels any more than a dodgy neighbour.

[Sirron]

I have seen rebels attacking repeatedly, quite notoriously if they own both Pomerania and Prussia.
In one of my Byzantine campaign I had a major problem with continually escaping rebel ship that damaged my trade, for about 40 years or so...

I keep rebel buffers only when I do not want to get involved with other powers (avoid early taking of Toulouse while playing English to postpone war with HRE, Aragon), or if I want to lure them out to less defensible position.

Otherwise I agree with Sensei warrior and others - I attack rebels almost at any occasion, especially if it is beneficial to trade (e.g. Sweden).

[RobN]

Before I knew much about re-emergencies, I tried using a rebel province as a buffer between me and the enemy. Then the French re-emerged. Sacre bleu! I learned the hard way.

[Sensei Warrior]

Contrary to Sensei Warrior's experience, I HAVE encountered rebels attacking. It's not common, but also it's not impossible. It seems more likely to occur where a rebel faction already controls more than one province. It's not wise to turn your back on rebels any more than a dodgy neighbour.

Uh OH! Um well, I guess I'm going to have to clear up a couple of rebel issues in a game I got going on.

I honestly have never seen that happen, not that I doubt both you and Sirron. Have you guys seen it happen when playing VI 2.01 or a similar version of vanilla MTW?

If thats the case then my opinion of rebels have shifted to conquering a little quicker than I suggested in my initial post.

[Martok]

Just about anyone who's played as the English can tell you that "rebels" (in their case, the Scots) don't just sit there.

I usually don't bother with rebel buffer zones, unless by a happy coincidence it happens to work out that way. Probably the best example I can think of is when I'm the Aragonese/Castille-Loen/Portuguese and I'm at war with the Almoravids. I generally push them back across north Africa until they only have Cyrenacia left. Once there, the Almos usually just sit there until they die off from being unable to pay their troops. After that, they'll occasionally respawn with a couple large stacks, but they still just sit there until they go rebel again. Wash, rinse, & repeat.

In this case, the Almos serve as an excellent buffer between me and the Fatamids (Egyptians), with whom I don't like to tangle until my armies are stronger and my kingdom has been re-organized. Generally, however, situations like this are pretty rare for me. It's only every once in a while that my interests are better served by leaving buffer states alone, as opposed to just taking them over (via either conquest or bribery).

[Sensei Warrior]

Just about anyone who's played as the English can tell you that "rebels" (in their case, the Scots) don't just sit there.

I've played the English alot. Actually, they are one of the only Catho factions I'm good at. Of course, Scotland ranks as the 2nd provence to be conquered, just after I bribe the Welsh, so I've never seen them jump the line. Don't mind me I'm just surprised that after all the years I've played I've never encountered a rebel attack from another provence. Then again this is the 2nd or 3rd thread that has brought up something I've never seen before. Maybe I'm just not paying attention.