The Ottoman empire and the Christians

[DukeofSerbia]

I was a little bit busy. So here is my answer...
DukeofSerbia
Thanks for the elucidation.The Bosnians are young nation created after the middle of XXth century. However the native of Bosnia were mainly heretics although the formal religion was the Catholicism the Bogomil herecy was very popular.

Constitutive nations in Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina are Bosnjaks, Serbs and Croats. Muslims are introduced as a nation after WW II in Constitution of Socialist Federal Republik of Yugoslavia. It's one of the world's greatest perversion that religion became nation!

It's a popular tale that medieval Bosnia was heretical (so called Bogumils). The main religion was Orthodox Christianity and people were over 90% Serbs. You should know that for Romancatholics (for long time in history) Orthodox Christians were some kind of infidels. And those Bogumils were called Patharens because in Orthodoxy "And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets" and Romancatholics teach that Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father and the Son (Filioque).
And the most Bosnian rulers were Orthodoxs (especially king who were all Orthodox).

[LeftEyeNine]

Stephen Asen,

I just don't get why I have to admit what you say, what you are told what you have read. Turks did not tell anything about the incident. If this can prove something, it proves that we are lazy asses. Turkish government is very ignorant since the death of Ismet İnönü and that makes around 50 years.

Abdulhamid II was quite a "king of the hill" kind of guy. His attempts were quite strictive but, if you look through the timeframe of the history, his attempts can be justified as "forcing a revival". Most of the Republic period establishments were origined in his time. He sent so many students abroad for education, founded many schools all over the country. And the intelligence organization was his step as well. I heard some rumours about his fingerprints about having a "hand" in the activities of IRA as a counter attack against UK. However it may be hoax, I did not research much into that subject.

"Zulüm" means "cruelty" in Turkish, by the way, not "destruction". That was a bad attempt to relate the period with that so called "genocide".

And that "lovely" Europeans trying to stop Ottomans from massacring Armenians was a good laugh indeed. How pretty and humanistic they are. I'm sure they would hand our lands back, but you know we were rather impatient.

Review history, re-read it from different "pens".

The so called Armenian Genocide is generally dated from mainly 1915. 1925 is Republic period and such action is impossible at that date. Because I know that USA and Turkey were having tense and close relationships by the period. There were even telegraphs coming and going about a single unjustified punishment in Turkey, so that it's impossible that the new country could attempt that. Everyone was worn and run out. Noone could chase such absurd stuff.

The case with the Armenians killing the Turks- that was the bitter result of the genocide over the Armenians.

Reading help :

Armenian who feels blunt enough to talk about Armenian Issue being a "genocide", should be able to give answers to who Taşnak Sütyan and ASALA were, and how 500.000 Turks were tortured and murdered before what you call a "genocide".

The Armenians' murders start following the invasion of Russians in 1877-1878. You see, 1914 is a bigger number. That means "later" for the study of history.

Later the genocide continued because when one tradition is founded its difficult to be stpped.

Turkish culture is at least as humanistic as the Western civilization. I'm a descendant of a civilization where the wifeof the Khan was as powerful as the Khan himself. This simply itself denies out any cannibalist traditions that can take root in my culture. Above anything else you mentioned here, I was rather frustrated with such claim of yours.

kataphraktoi

Isn't it convenient to deny genocide as well. Your argument that Armenians committed genocide does not rule out Turkish genocide of Armenians. And besides, Turks and Armenians are not clans, how can it be a clan war? Its a battle for survival.

I know Turks and Armenians are not clans. Take it as a means of distinction among the sides of the issue.

You try to exterminate the Armenians, they got P*ssed of and try to give you a taste of what they experienced.

Armenians try to exterminate us, we got p*ssed off and tried to give them a taste of what we experienced when they were on way of obligatory immigration. Can I state it more clear ?

I'm not saying the slaughter of Turks was justified, I'm saying what the hell do you expect when you commit such atrocities against a people?

I'm not saying the slaughter of Turks was justified, it was a war. I'm saying that what the hell do you expect when you commit such atrocities against your neighbors ?

How can you write a tale where you ignited the fire with your own bloody hands and then weep it to the whole world ?

How can your struggle be justified by killing around 40 Turkish diplomats with your terrorist organization?

How can your lie can be even uglier remembering how your ancestors used to live neighbors to mine peacefully ?

How can your "democratic demands" can be met while every 7 of 10 PKK terrorists killed is found to be Armenian ?

How can your little melting candle light any longer?

We, Turks, have a saying : "The liar's candle extinguishes by the prayer of night"

Why can't Modern Democratic Turkey admit it?? Is there a masculine culture that does not want to lose face? Is it pride? Is it a combination of both?

Because there is nothing to accept. Simply and clearly put.

There is a strong face with its pride that is standing here since 1071. When the whole world falls upon him, he fights back to his freedom.

It's a combination of all which losers did not ever have.

[IrishArmenian]

How can you write a tale where you ignited the fire with your own bloody hands and then weep it to the whole world ?

How can your struggle be justified by killing around 40 Turkish diplomats with your terrorist organization?

How can your lie can be even uglier remembering how your ancestors used to live neighbors to mine peacefully ?

How can your "democratic demands" can be met while every 7 of 10 PKK terrorists killed is found to be Armenian ?

How can your little melting candle light any longer?

1) We were actaully close to being exterminated. Yeah that is why. The original was not ethnic cleansing. It was not aimed at all Turks, yet all Armenians were prosecuted for the deeds of a few.
2) It is not OUR terrorist organization. How can someone be so narrow minded. Are all of Zarqawi's doings recorded on Syria's slate? Is Osama Bin Laden the face of Yemen? No. It is not our terrorist organization, just because they were Armenian. That is like saying all Irish are bold supporters of the assassinations led by the IRA, IRB and Sinn Fein. You are sorly mistaken. I think it is very offensive when you judge a whole people by their extremists. Is that not the problem in America with Muslims?
3)It is not a lie, and beleive me, everyone wishes for a peaceful world. It is the politicians that decide this. This is like judging America by George Bush, it is stupid to.
4) So now everyone who is Armenian is now the reason for your government to deny the genocide? There are much better people to judge Armenians by. I do not judge the terrorists in the Middle East by saying, how come 10 out of 10 Al Qaeda terrorists are muslim.
This all come from your prejudices and judgements when you have not examined this subject from all points of view. I originally thought that everyone here was much better than making petty, and quite offensive assumptions. I guess not.

[Kralizec]

2) It is not OUR terrorist organization. How can someone be so narrow minded. Are all of Zarqawi's doings recorded on Syria's slate? Is Osama Bin Laden the face of Yemen?

Eh, no because Al-Zarqawi was born in Jordan and OBL in Saudi Arabia.

Sorry I couldn't resist

[LeftEyeNine]

My statements above give a general idea of how "dirty" the two sides can be. I did not try to reach a generalization about all Armenians being terrorists or something. This is childish let alone being far from being rational.

I'm times and times sick of Armenians playing it to the world being so innocent and color white. ASALA and Taşnak Sütyan were all Armenian originated and this somehow carries an essence of what is happening around.

Personally I have nothing against Armenians because I have encountered and lived with none of them. But what we talk here are the politics. And they are Turks that get blamed by the genocide -just as how you called my post being offensive and petty while pointing out ASALA as a whole and PKK's most guerillas were Armenians.

Don't take it personal at all, if you did, I did not intend to do so. But if Turks are blamed for genocide, you should be well aware that Armenians were in such terrorist organizations.

And please don't present that "no not Turkish people, I mean the Turkish governemnt should admit blah blah" BS, government represents the country -whatever they may have done for the period. And what they do affects the whole nation, not only the government.

IA, I think you can use your common sense and see what I mean.

However after all this discussion will not change anything. You will believe in what you want to and same will apply for me.

[IrishArmenian]

Personally I have nothing against Armenians because I have encountered and lived with none of them.
Don't take it personal at all, if you did, I did not intend to do so. But if Turks are blamed for genocide, you should be well aware that Armenians were in such terrorist organizations.

However after all this discussion will not change anything. You will believe in what you want to and same will apply for me.

Oh yes, and I Turks. In fact my brother in law is Turkish (EDIT:upon further remebering, he is a Turkish Gypsy, but that is not the point...) I do not take it personal, I just get a small bit heated in debates, but I feel someone who doesn't is distant and aloof. I was also well ware of the Armenian Secret Police, and other such terrorist organizations. We all use common sense, we are all brothers.
Krazilecthank you for correcting me, but you get that whole point, yes?
I have nothing against any of you all here.