Red Flood

[Franconicus]

Excellent start! I think we will have a lot of fun!!

Just some advices:
1) Do not look at the future. Crete has not happened, maybe it will never. You can trust on the experience of the operations in Norway or the Netherlands and Eben-Emael, of course. The battle of Crete was full of mistakes and the results may be misleading.

2) In this face focus on getting information more then try to improve the situation. You get your chance later!

You will have to plan an operation, therfore you need every detail. Wouldn't it be a pity if you plan a large scale airborne operation and it fails because you did not realize that the range of the transporters is too short?

You must find out:

1) The strength of the air borne forces and their organisation (what is the difference of the Fallschirmjäger and the Luftlande Division?)
2) the training; what is the skill of the soldiers, the spirit, how many are trained. This will not be just one operation. You have to find out the ability to refill your units.
3) the equipment; I think you have a lot of info; try to gather the facts!
4) the tactics:
The Fallschirnjäger are a new arm and has developed some new tactics. Again, do not look at the paras of the allies or at Crete! One important issue is the way the jump, the altidute!
5) the planes: how many do you have, how fast can you replace casualties, what can a single plane carry, range etc.
6) general strength and weakness




Enjoy your weekend and may Germany win this evening

[DemonArchangel]

To answer Franconicus' Questions (AFAIK), and to ask some of my own.

1.) Weren't the Luftlande divisions not paramobile? And if I recall correctly, the Fallschirmjaeger were army, not air force units.

2.) Well, the units are well trained.... But what IS the capacity for raising more units/refilling old ones anyway? Also, how high are in terms of supply priority? (given that the Germans were basically always short on supplies and most of the good stuff went to the Panzers) I know that high casualties are bad.

3.) Equipment: I'll try to dig up some specs on the 75mm Recoilless Rifle. In the meantime... we need a better rifle than the K98 for the paratroopers. Something that's at the very least shorter and easier to jump out of a plane with.

4.) Tactics: Hmm.... I'll get back to you on that one. I know that capturing airfields/disabling enemy strongpoints is important.

5.) We can't exactly replace planes quickly, nor do we have that many of them, nor do they have long range. And can we get air support and air interdiction? (depends on geography really)

6.) We're really damned to low altitude, low opening jumps, due to the limits of the transport planes mostly. Another issue would be lack of bottled oxygen, preventing the usage of HALO jumping (not that it was around at this period anyway.)

7.) Our general strengths are that we're well trained, highly motivated and we have some combat experience. However, we have very little AT strength as of right now, and we lack tactical mobility once on the ground (hence the Kubelwagens)

[King Kurt]

Our plane - the Ju 52 details care of Wikpedia:
Specifications (Junkers Ju 52/3m g7e)
Data from Jane’s Fighting Aircraft of World War II[1]

General characteristics
Crew: 3 (two pilots, radio operator)
Capacity: 18 troops or 12 litter patients
Length: 18.90 m (62 ft 0 in)
Wingspan: 29.25 m (95 ft 10 in)
Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 10 in)
Wing area: 110.5 m² (1,190 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,510 kg (14,325 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,200 kg (20,270 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 10,990 kg (24,200 lb)
Powerplant: 3× BMW 132T radial engines, 533 kW (715 hp)[1] each
Performance
Maximum speed: 265 km/h (165 mph) at sea level
Cruise speed: 211 km/h (132 mph)
Range: 870 km (540 miles)
Service ceiling: 5,490 m (18,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 17 minutes to 3,050 m (10,000 ft)
Armament
1× 13 mm MG 131 machine gun in a dorsal position
2× 7.92 mm MG 15 machine guns

I have seen a couple of different ranges quoted - up to 650 nautical miles/ 1200 km, but allowing for full loading and combat conditions, we can assume that we can transport paras up to about 250 miles away quite safely - except for the fighters!!!

[Rodion Romanovich]

3.) Equipment: I'll try to dig up some specs on the 75mm Recoilless Rifle. In the meantime... we need a better rifle than the K98 for the paratroopers. Something that's at the very least shorter and easier to jump out of a plane with.

Are there any problems with the K98k, the carbine version of the K98 rifle? The K98k was the one most widely deployed for the army too.

[Rodion Romanovich]

The tanks we're facing:
- Lighter tanks of some 3-15mm armor
- Crusader I 7-49mm
- Infantry Tank Mk. I 10-65mm
- Valentine I 7-65mm
- Matilda II & III 20-80mm armor

Our AT weaponry:
- AT hand grenades possible to throw the last 30 or so metres after sneaking up close to the enemy tanks. These were often magnetic devices. There were two versions, one 3.5 kg (magnetic, time fuse, hollow charge) and one 1.35 kg (impact fuse) version. I think the heavier one was able to take out all of the heavier British tanks of the time, while the lighter one could take out most light armored vehicles and lighter tanks, but it's unclear how well it performed against medium tanks.
- High calibre rifle PzB39 (1200 m/s muzzle velocity, 12.7kg weight, 25mm armor penetration). Armor penetration of 25mm - as you can see it can only hurt most better tanks from above or below or by targetting weak points, electronic equipment, or the window used for the crew to look, to blind the tanks. All light tanks and a few medium tanks could be penetrated by this rifle, with much greater chances of success when shooting at the sides or rear (absolutely required for the medium tanks).
- Mortars - the 5 cm mentioned above is the only one available at this time. There were apparently many complaints about the 5cm mortar and lack of better mortars as long as the 5cm mortar was used; it wasn't overly popular (the later 8cm mortar however was). The British on the other hand at this time had a very flexible collection of mortars of different calibres, apparently their lightest mortar, the 2inch mortar, was also possible to fire at horizontal angles (though this usage was invented by commandos a bit later in the war so I suppose in 1940 it wasn't known it could be used in that way) which was very effective for street fighting (and possibly also vs tanks in street fighting?)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Strengths and weaknesses in small arms:
- Rifles - slightly superior accuracy, penetration and range, but lower fire speed due to smaller magazine and slightly more difficult handling.
- Machineguns - British had the ZB26/Bren Gun, a light mg with only 30 rounds magazine, and heavier MGs that required transportation vehicles. The Germans had MG34 (later also MG42) with unmatched fire rate, large magazine, and good range and accuracy too, and not easily overheated. The MG34 could be mounted on bipod or tripod for light and heavy roles. German MGs were extremely superior to British at this time.
- SMGs - The British had good SMGs too but the German SMGs were more widely deployed it seems, especially the MP40 was made in large series. So the Germans have a slight edge in SMGs.
- Grenades - no fragmentation grenades but shock grenades. Good for offensive and bunker fighting, but for defense and outdoors fighting in the open.
- AT-weaponry - slight edge for the Germans over British counterparts due to the effective magnetic hollow charges. Otherwise pretty similar equipment.
- Artillery - the British had a bit more flexible mortars of different types already at this time, while the Germans only had the 5cm mortar.

Strenghts and weaknesses:
++ Fighting over long distances in the open - German MGs providing superior suppressive fire, the accuracy of the K98k slightly better
++ Medium distance fighting in the open - German MGs providing an edge here too
+/- Short distance fighting in the open - German MGs and the more widely spread SMGs providing an edge, though the rifles are slower than the British counterparts.
- Long distance fighting in complex terrain - British more flexible mortar strength giving a slight edge
- Medium distance fighting in complex terrain - British more flexible mortar strength giving a slight edge
- Short distance fighting in complex terrain - British faster rifles, better light mortars and fragmentation grenades (more effective outdoors) probably gave an edge here
++ Street fighting - German SMGs manufactured in greater series at this time, the British would mostly have rifles in response
++ Bunker and trench fighting - German SMGs better, plus the grenades extremely effective in confined spaces

These are weaknesses and strengths in weaponry, but depending on training and tactics the advantages in these situations could be lost and the disadvantages countered in some cases. A full analysis on strengths and weaknesses must also take training and tactics into account.

[JimBob]

1) If memory serves Luftlande were meant to be the second wave, they could be flown into airfields once the Fallschirmjager had captured them.
2) The training is among the best in the German army. They are among the most highly motivated soldiers, and they believe they are the best and the most important.
3) From Green Devils the weapons the Germans would have in 1940
Mauser K98
Caliber: 7.92mm (8mm), Length: 43.6 inches, Weight: 9lbs
Maximum Range: 1200 meters, Feed System: 5 round integral box magazine, Rate of fire: 15rpm
MP40
Caliber: 9mm, Length: 33.5 inches ,Weight: 9lbs
Maximum Range: 300 meters, Feed System: 32 Round Detachable Magazine, Rate of fire: 400-500rpm
MG34
Caliber: 7.92mm, Length: 48 inches, Weight: 26.5lbs
Maximum Range: 800 meters, Feed System: Belt or Drum Fed, Rate of fire: 900rpm
4) Again from memory, I believe that they jumped low in the area of 300 to 500 feet, which was considered low by the Allies (on D-Day the airobrne jumped at 500 feet and thought they it was dangerously low)

[IrishArmenian]

1)Well, I thought the luftflande was not as mobile as the Fallshrimjager. Now, I beleive there were many Fallschrimjager divisions at the end of the war, but early, I beleive there was only the German 1st Parachute Division, the German 2nd Parachute Division, and the Ramcke Parachute Brigade. The Luftlande was somewhat underpowered after fighting the the Poles and the Dutch in rapid succesion. If this takes place before Leningrad, the Fallschrimjager will be at full steam, but a grop of green soldiers (new guys).
2)Their training was beyond good. It was the most brutal in possibly the whole Axis alliance (for such large units, at least). It would take a long time to add replacements. I would start training more immediatley.
3) I beleive "we" really need a carbine. Place an order with Mauser, I beleive they were experimenting with one at this time. The paratroopers cannot jump with a K98, far too heavy. No STG-44's either (I do not know if those are around at this time, even). MP-40's and K98k is what "we" need.
4) I think we have to jump high. We will get eaten up at if we land anywhere near England by thier AA, not to mention their planes. We need a lot of escorts, and possibly a diversionary bombing/Naval battle. This is a 1 shot weapon, we screw this up, we might see much longer war, or (everything is a possiblility) defeat.
5) If possible, could we use JU88's? Britain would use only planes, and no troops would be on alert, except their firefiters. I assume we could make a door on the side of a JU88, it seems simple. I beleive we need a lot of BF109's to engage the British.
6) In my opinion, we do not have much going for us:
+ Suprise
+ Superior weapons
++ Superior training
++ Superior tactics
- British terrain is very unpredictable and varied
- Very hard to train for this operation
- They wil have more soldiers
-- They will fight to the death, not afraid to die
--- We cannot stop at London, the British Isles, have, are, and always will be an incredibly hard place to conquer, so much open space, hills, forests, small islands, rocky terrain. The people there have been conquered by so many, and many of their people have been rebels for over a thousand years: Scots, Irish. If we do conquer England, Sctoland and Erin, it will be tough to control. I am not sure about the Scots, but the IRB, IRA, and Sinn Fein would be completly distracted from the English, and any high-ranking officer who decides to inspect our new territory would have a good chance of turning up dead. Those lands have always been turbulent and hard to control due to the many different types of people. The Catholics and Protestants all around Britain will put aside their differences to fight us. Not a good thing to happen.
--- Scotland, the thing that I would fear the most, and here is why:
a) Those people have indominable spirits from being under other people rule for so long
b) They have been employing Guerilla warfare for hundreds of years
c) The altitude could really get to our troops
d) They know the terrain in and out, they could kill us with their hit and run tactics
e) Not afraid to die
f) Morale
And if what Demon says is correct, you best jump with your weapons. None of this cannister or leg-bag rubbish.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Mauser K98

Odd in the headline it says K98, but in the text they say K98k. AFAIK the K98k was already deployed in 1940, so I suppose we already have the carbine we wanted.

[DemonArchangel]

The tanks we're facing:
- Lighter tanks of some 3-15mm armor
- Crusader I 7-49mm
- Infantry Tank Mk. I 10-65mm
- Valentine I 7-65mm
- Matilda II & III 20-80mm armor

Our AT weaponry:
- AT hand grenades possible to throw the last 30 or so metres after sneaking up close to the enemy tanks. These were often magnetic devices. There were two versions, one 3.5 kg (magnetic, time fuse, hollow charge) and one 1.35 kg (impact fuse) version. I think the heavier one was able to take out all of the heavier British tanks of the time, while the lighter one could take out most light armored vehicles and lighter tanks, but it's unclear how well it performed against medium tanks.
- High calibre rifle PzB39 (1200 m/s muzzle velocity, 12.7kg weight, 25mm armor penetration). Armor penetration of 25mm - as you can see it can only hurt most better tanks from above or below or by targetting weak points, electronic equipment, or the window used for the crew to look, to blind the tanks. All light tanks and a few medium tanks could be penetrated by this rifle, with much greater chances of success when shooting at the sides or rear (absolutely required for the medium tanks).
- Mortars - the 5 cm mentioned above is the only one available at this time. There were apparently many complaints about the 5cm mortar and lack of better mortars as long as the 5cm mortar was used; it wasn't overly popular (the later 8cm mortar however was). The British on the other hand at this time had a very flexible collection of mortars of different calibres, apparently their lightest mortar, the 2inch mortar, was also possible to fire at horizontal angles (though this usage was invented by commandos a bit later in the war so I suppose in 1940 it wasn't known it could be used in that way) which was very effective for street fighting (and possibly also vs tanks in street fighting?)

Very nice, don't forget the vehicles and the RRs though. And Franc, that's one sweet looking prime mover for the recoilless rifle. It should be paradroppable with a 3 parachute rig.

Also I learned this while Wiki diving:

A major flaw in Germans airborne procedures was that most of the men's individual weapons were dropped in canisters; this was in contrast with the practice of most other nations's airborne forces, who routinely jumped with personal weapons strapped to the jumper. While this facilitated exit from the aircraft and prevented loss and damage to the rifles, it left the paratroopers armed only with their sidearms and fighting knives in the critical few minutes after landing. The poor design of German parachutes compounded the problem: the standard German parachute harness had only a single riser connecting the paratrooper to the parachute canopy, and thus could not be steered toward weapons canisters and away from ground hazards during descent. Even the twenty-five percent of paratroops armed with machine pistols were at a distinct disadvantage, given the weapon's limited range. Many Fallschirmjäger were shot attempting to make it to their unit's weapons canisters.

[DemonArchangel]

Argh! Triple Post!

[Franconicus]

A major flaw in Germans airborne procedures was that most of the men's individual weapons were dropped in canisters; this was in contrast with the practice of most other nations's airborne forces, who routinely jumped with personal weapons strapped to the jumper. While this facilitated exit from the aircraft and prevented loss and damage to the rifles, it left the paratroopers armed only with their sidearms and fighting knives in the critical few minutes after landing. The poor design of German parachutes compounded the problem: the standard German parachute harness had only a single riser connecting the paratrooper to the parachute canopy, and thus could not be steered toward weapons canisters and away from ground hazards during descent. Even the twenty-five percent of paratroops armed with machine pistols were at a distinct disadvantage, given the weapon's limited range. Many Fallschirmjäger were shot attempting to make it to their unit's weapons canisters.

Very good

Their training was beyond good. It was the most brutal in possibly the whole Axis alliance (for such large units, at least). It would take a long time to add replacements. I would start training more immediatley.

I forgot my source but if I remember right the training of the Fallschirmjäger was 8 weeks, including 2 weeks of basic training. The pre-selection and the selection during the courses was tough, though.

Student ordered to lower the discipline and formal education of the paras compared to the rest. The FJ should not only be able to follow orders, but also to make their own decisions. Further more he thought that it would imptove theior pride and their comunity to see that they had less drill than the others.

Do not forget that the Wehmacht had the 'mission type tactics'. This made a big differenc to the Angloamerican tactics.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 2 – From Paris to Berlin

Paris, June 16th, 1940


Finally Ramcke reaches Paris. The French capitol is very impressive, especially at springtime, and even the red flags with the black crosses cannot spoil the atmosphere.

His first station is the commander’s office. The building is filled with German officers and generals. Ramcke cannot remember to have seen so much tinsel at one place before. A telegram is already waiting for Ramcke. He opens it and looks at the sender: General Student. He calls Ramcke back to Berlin, immediately! What a pity! Ramcke had been looking forward to a couple of pleasant days at Paris. It comes to nothing! Ramcke goes to the adjutant of the commander and tells him that he needs pressingly a flight to Berlin. The officer shakes his head: “I am sorry, Oberstleutnant! All planes are occupied. You have to wait.”
Ramcke urges the adjutant: “It is important! I have to report to General Student.”
“I see, Sir. Please look around. Do you see all these generals? They all are waiting for an opportunity to get to Berlin. I am sorry, but I cannot help you!”
He turns away.
“Damned”, Ramcke curses. “It is easier to conquer Paris than to get a flight to Berlin.”
“Maybe I can help you!” Ramcke turns around and looks at an admiral of the Navy.
“Maybe the Reichsmarine can help a former mate, who is now at the Heer – or should I say Luftwaffe?”
“Good morning, Konteradmiral Dönitz! It is still Heer. How did you run ashore here?”
“That is a long story! Maybe we can talk about this later. By accident I heard your conversation. It seems that you are the one who stranded and that you will not be able to leave Paris for several days. Maybe I can offer you a solution for your problem?”
“That would be great. Do you have a battleship here ready to set sails for Berlin?”
“No, I don’t, not even a submarine. However, the Reichsmarine has an extra wagon here at the railway station and it is ready to set sails. If you like you can come with me!”
“Your offer is very generous.”
“However, the train will go to Bremerhaven. I am sure that you will get a flight there to Berlin.”
Ramcke would prefer a train to Berlin, but he has no choice: “Let me send a telegram and then we can start right away!”

Hours later the two Germans are on their way back to the Reich.

The two officers have their own cabin and can talk unhindered. Dönitz tells his guest that he visited France to see how the Kriegsmarine can take advantage of the French defeat. Of course they talk about the German victory.

Ramcke: “Isn’t it amazing? We both know the struggling during the last war. Now everything is different, everything seems to be easy. We win everywhere, there is nothing that could stop us or even slow us down. France will fall within a few days. Then England will stand alone and has to find an agreement with Germany.”
Dönitz: “Our victory is amazing; and surprising. However, it is still incomplete. England is still standing. I do not think that the war is already finished.”
Ramcke looks surprised: “Come on! England is finished. The Poles had to give up, the French are out of the war and Germany controls the continent. The English are sitting on their islands and cannot do anything to hurt us. Do you think England has still hopes to win this war; to conquer Europe and to march in Berlin?”
Dönitz: “Well, the English are sitting on their islands and we cannot do anything to hurt them. Still you hope that we will win the war?”
Ramcke: “We cannot do anything to hurt them? We can cross that Channel and take their capitol, can’t we?”
Dönitz: “No, I do not think we can. There is still the Royal Navy. How can we cross the Channel without defeating them? One thing I can tell you, the Reichsmarine will not be able to protect the assault divisions or the supply against the Royal Navy.”
Ramcke: “However, our Luftwaffe can! We will simply sink the Royal Navy!”
Dönitz: “You are kidding, Oberstleutnant. You are an old Navy man and you know what we are talking about. There is still the Royal Air Force. Maybe I am wrong, but from all I have heard it is something else than the Polish or French Air Force. And they can stay outside the range of our fighters and enter the battle just when we try to cross the Channel. Anyway, let us assume that the Royal Air Force can be defeated by our fighters and that the bombers and divers can jump at the Royal Navy ships. Do you think they will be able to stop the Royal Navy from cutting off our supply? Maybe the bombers will be successful and sink the English battleships. That will mean nothing. The Royal Navy has thousand of smaller ships, cruisers, destroyer, frigates, and submarines and so on. Maybe they will have disastrous casualties; nevertheless, in the end they will destroy our supply chain. That will be the end of the invasion, or do you think that the Luftwaffe will be able to supply the troops?”
Ramcke: “Err, no, maybe not. I never looked at it that way. Well, maybe you are right; we would not be able to stop the RN if they mobilize all their small ships. Maybe we do not have to. Maybe England is already wondering how to get an agreement with Germany.”
Dönitz: “Maybe I know the English better than you do. They are bullheaded; they will not give in; no matter what Hitler will offer them, they will just ignore the fact that they lost France and Poland and fight on until they will win. Call it heroic or simply stupid, but that is the way it is and we should not pretend they want to have peace.”
Ramcke: “There is one thing you forgot, Konteradmiral. Our Luftwaffe can bomb London and I think that the English government will loose his lust for war as son as some bombs will trop on its heads.”
Dönitz: “I know that the Luftwaffe is strong. However, I am sure that air raids will only increase the English will to fight.”
Ramcke: “Alright! Then it is your business to defeat the British. After all I have heard your submarines are doing an excellent job. How long do you think the British can stand the attacks? They will run out of food and beg for peace.”
Dönitz: “Thank you very much for your faith. We have 60 boats; one third cannot operate in the Atlantic. From these 60 boats there are 20 in the operational area, not more. Do you really think that 20 boats will cut off the English supply? If I had 300 boats, that would be a different story. However with 60 … .”
Ramcke: “That is not many, but I thought that this number will increase soon.”
Dönitz: “I hope you are right! Additionally the French Atlantic bases will increase our strength too. But time is not on our side. The British will improve their defense. They will increase their air patrols. They will activate the resources of their Empire and sooner or later the US will join the war.”
Ramcke: “If I understand you right, you say that there will be a stand-off situation? Isn’t that another reason for both sides to make a peaceful agreement?”
Dönitz: “No. Not a stand-off. The English will be getting stronger and stronger, the US will join the fight and the position of the Russians is uncertain. No, unfortunately, there will be no stand-off.”
Ramcke: “So you think we already lost the war? That is defeatism, isn’t it?”
Dönitz: “I am not saying that we already lost the war. I just veto that we already won the war or that it will be a walk in the park to defeat the English. No, we will have to fight and we will have to concentrate all our efforts and then, maybe, we will win this war. Right now it seems to me that nobody really cares. Everybody ignores the fact that we are at war with England. There are no plans how to continue, no strategy. Everybody seems to think that this problem will go away all by itself. It will not!”
Ramcke: “So, what would you do?”
Dönitz: “First of all we have to accept that England will continue the fight and that it is a strong enemy. If we do not, we are just wasting precious time. Then we should have a plan. Attack the Atlantic connections is a must and we have to focus on that. Furthermore we have to adopt the traditional English war strategy; we have to attack the English at the periphery. England’s strength is that it controls the seas and has full access to resources all over the world. On the other side, this is its weakness. My idea is to attack them at the Mediterranean Sea. There are good opportunities to improve our situation. If we manage to occupy Gibraltar and the Suez the benefit would be high. The Mediterranean Sea would be free of English ships. We would control the whole area, Cyprus, Malta and all the other islands would be ours. Controlling the sea means controlling Northern Africa, too. Southern Europe would be ours. We could be sure that the French colonies stay on our side, too and we could use the resources of Africa. We could build bases for the submarines and planes at Northwestern Africa and at the shores of the Red Sea. The Italian fleet could stay inside the Med and threaten both, the Atlantic and the Indian Ocean. The British would loose the shortest connection from the east; this alone would reduce their transport capacity. They would loose a lot of ships in the Mediterranean, too. Additionally they had to fear operations against the Iraqi oilfields as well as operations against India. Maybe they will accept a favorable peace rather than running into the danger of loosing their colonies.”
Ramcke: “That sounds good, although I always prefer to go the straight way. However, there is one thing you have forgotten. There are no German troops at the Mediterranean, no ships. Germany does not have access to that ocean.”
Dönitz gives a shrug: “Is that a problem? Look at Gibraltar! It is surrounded by Spanish and French territory. Franco owns us a lot. And the French are going to be defeated soon. Regarding Suez: As far as I know the Italians have a pretty strong army at the gate of Egypt.”

Ramcke and Dönitz are still arguing when the train stops at Bremerhaven. A car is waiting for Ramcke and soon he sits in the plane to Berlin. In the plane he is alone and he reflects the dispute he had with Dönitz. Is Dönitz right? Is a war at the periphery better than a direct assault?
Task for today: I think it is time to analyze the political situation after the fall of France. (GB, US, Russia, Italy, France; and do not the smaller countries!!)

[DemonArchangel]

ARGH! DOuble Post