Volga-Bulgarian ideal line-up

[Peasant Phill]

I've recently started a Volga-Bulgarian/early/hard/GA campaign (XL mod) to really hone my HA skills (and because I think I'll really like it).

The year is now 1108 or so and I've conquered quite a lot of new territories (I'm more of a turtler but you can't raise and keep an army with just one province) but I haven't been able to form a decent army to use offensively or defensively in a hub system. This is because of money shortage, the need to defend numerous borders and a low position on the tech tree. This will change (unless someone attacks me with a decent army) in the near future, so I was wondering what would be the ideal all purpose line-up be?

I was thinking something along the lines of:

8 units of steppe heavy cavalry
4 units of steppe cavalry
3 units of Kazanchis ( pole arm infantry)
1 general probably Bulgarian royal cavalry (prince)

I would use a system where my HA would shoot up and isolate the enemy. My general and infantry can then go in for the kill assisted by the SHC to hit the enemy from all sides. The SC take care of the routers fast HA.

My army consists 4 groups of 2 SHC and 1 SC and 1 group of general and pole arms.

What do you think? Any suggestions?

[Roark]

I don't have XL, so I'm not well-informed about available units.

$0.02 opinion:

Switch 2 (or ALL) of your SHC to another heavy cav with a devastating charge, and switch 2 your SC to a fast horse archer (unless the best fast HA you can get is the bedwetting vanilla version).

SHC are a great unit, but it is much harder to manipulate the enemy and get out of sticky situations with standard speed HAs. A fast HA is much more effective.

SC have a good charge for light cavalry, but you need something with real punch other than your general's unit.

BUT

Just remember: No one single army line-up works against all possible enemy combos.

;-)

[Peasant Phill]

Switch 2 (or ALL) of your SHC to another heavy cav with a devastating charge, and switch 2 your SC to a fast horse archer (unless the best fast HA you can get is the bedwetting vanilla version).

SHC are a great unit, but it is much harder to manipulate the enemy and get out of sticky situations with standard speed HAs. A fast HA is much more effective.

SC have a good charge for light cavalry, but you need something with real punch other than your general's unit.

You make a good point but I had thought of this.

My first plan was actualy 4 groups consisting 1 vanilla HA ( for HA I must chose between vanilla HA and SHC) 1 SHC and 1 Bulgarian royal cav next to the genaral/inf group. The problem with that is that the vanilla HA have no melee skills or charge at all. Another problem is the upkeep for the BRC it's 105 florins or so a year compared to the 40 florins of the SHC for the same training cost. True BRC pack more punch but SHC also have decent melee stats and has a ranged attack (that is armour piercing).
True SHC aren't fast enough to evade heavy cav charging at full speed but I'm not going to use SHC for luring, that's what the SC are for. And if I'm in a situation where I can't evade a cav attack at least I can defend myself and I can surround the enemy cav with another SHC and my SC.

Just remember: No one single army line-up works against all possible enemy combos.

I'm aware of this and I've build a system of inns so that I can add units to my line-up for every occasion.

[Third spearman from the left]

Hey Phil,
I've played this faction in the same time period on expert and done quite well, so here are my ideas. SC are not that great unless teched up so I'd only use them to get routers or for quick flanking. BRC are you best weapon and using them after you have picked off the troops with horse archers is a great tactic. Numbers and combo's are hard to advise on due to your limited resources, but remember it's 1108 and the horde will be rising soon. Build jihads and plenty kanzchis, you will need them when they horde arrive.

I'll post a screen shot of my empire and army combo's if you like?

[Peasant Phill]

Those screenshots would be great.

I thought that the horde arrive somewhere around 1230 (so I've enough time to build up).

I have some screenshots of my own:

This is my khan Subudai I which I started with. He has the auyhoritarian virtue and has gathered some other nice ones (e.g. magnificint builder) along the way. His influence right now (1114) is 8 crowns.



His son and heir (15 years younger) future Subudai II (nicknamed the spare) wasn't bad but it could've been much better. By now he just earned his 4th star and is a great builder, natural leader, charitable AND skilled attacker. So I expect no problems when he takes the trone except maybe his offspring as he isn't married yet (31 years old) and will only reign for 20 years give or take.



This was my army movement the first couple of years with battles indicated on the map.



with this as result



I feared the rebels in Khazar as they were a decent bunch of soldiers. 2 units of Khazar royal cav, 2 units of spearmen, 2 units of vanilla HA and 1 unit of SC. I even hired some mercenary infantry to counter the spearmen and some disposable medium cavalry. It turned out to be a joke, after my HA fired there first shots (12 men died among them 3 KRC) they just turned 180° and ran. It earned Subudai II his skilled attacker vice.



I have expanded my empire further. Subudai II invaded Georgia and won but the Seljuks (allies) were also present and had a larger force. At present I control The empire below with addition of Lesser Khazar, Levidia and Crimea.



I have a shiplen to Constantinople for the extra income but due to my rapid expanding I haven't been able to build my desired defensive force. On the bright side I'm allied with most of my neighbours and I'm not in war with anybody. I gues it's time to consolidate a little.

[Roark]

You make a good point but I had thought of this.

My first plan was actualy 4 groups consisting 1 vanilla HA ( for HA I must chose between vanilla HA and SHC) 1 SHC and 1 Bulgarian royal cav next to the genaral/inf group. The problem with that is that the vanilla HA have no melee skills or charge at all. Another problem is the upkeep for the BRC it's 105 florins or so a year compared to the 40 florins of the SHC for the same training cost. True BRC pack more punch but SHC also have decent melee stats and has a ranged attack (that is armour piercing).
True SHC aren't fast enough to evade heavy cav charging at full speed but I'm not going to use SHC for luring, that's what the SC are for. And if I'm in a situation where I can't evade a cav attack at least I can defend myself and I can surround the enemy cav with another SHC and my SC.



I'm aware of this and I've build a system of inns so that I can add units to my line-up for every occasion.

Fair enough. Yeah, I wasn't sure whether you might have access to a better fast HA than the vanilla...

What will actually work quite well for you with this combo is using your SC to flank enemy archers so that your SHC can simply be used as mobile missile platforms (as someone here referred to them once...)

[Odin]

I was thinking something along the lines of:

8 units of steppe heavy cavalry
4 units of steppe cavalry
3 units of Kazanchis ( pole arm infantry)
1 general probably Bulgarian royal cavalry (prince)

My army consists 4 groups of 2 SHC and 1 SC and 1 group of general and pole arms.

What do you think? Any suggestions?

I think this is a fine strategy but as mentioned by someone else, those SC arent much good in a fight unless valored up. My preference would be to use them as flanking units and pursuit, and maybe melee with foot missle units.

I read your other posts, and having played this faction myself I took some serious losses when the mongols showed up. I know thats a way away, but if your going to consolidate and build up some provinces you might consider thier enevitable arrival. In my campaign I took moscow and made it my capital, I built it up and made it a fortress. I lost Volga bugaria, and some of Cuman territories I took unlong the black sea.

I was able to refit and regroup with Moscow and the two other western russian provinces(there names escape me now) and take Kiev and push back along the black sea south while maintaining a defensive war in the North.

Good luck.

[Peasant Phill]

thanks Odin.

I know a little about the SC and was planning on using them as bait, rout chasers and to strike weak units fast.

to third spearman on the left:
Bulgarian Royal Cavalry: 8 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 8 ( charge/melee/defence/morale)
Steppe Heavy Cavalry: 6 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 7

They are much alike (which can be seen in their recruitement cost)with a slight advantage to BRC for their better charge and moral. But it doesn't justify (atleast not for me) the much higher upkeep (more than double) and the fact that SHC have missiles to.

I'm planning on building up Volga-Bulgaria and Khazar to at least a citadel and let them waste most of their forces on the assault (can they appear in Georgia to?). To be honest it will be the first time I'll meet the Horde on their appearance so it will be a huge challenge. I'm still a bit worried so I'll use a cheesy tactic and evacuate most units in V-B and Khazar around the time the Horde arrives so I'll face a smaller force. It's my first time so I prefer it gentil ;)

[Geezer57]

Bulgarian Royal Cavalry: 8 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 8 ( charge/melee/defence/morale)
Steppe Heavy Cavalry: 6 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 7

They are much alike (which can be seen in their recruitement cost)with a slight advantage to BRC for their better charge and moral. But it doesn't justify (atleast not for me) the much higher upkeep (more than double) and the fact that SHC have missiles to.

I strongly agree with PP on this, and would like to point out that it should be easier with the Steppe Heavies to tech up to Master Horse Breeder (Royals require the xxx Court series of buildings, IIRC, which don't give valor bonuses), and produce them at +1 valor. Once you reach that point, the SHC become clearly superior to BRC in combat, with a nice cost bonus as extra!

[Third spearman from the left]

Hey Phil,
I can see from the stats what you mean but for me the BRC seemed to have that bit more in the crunch. Maybe for me it was just that I got luckly with good v&v's for valor or stars for command with BRC over SHC. As long as you have a good mix you will be fine. As for the Horde yes your right it is 1230 and they can appear in Aremina just below Georgia. But that time will fly and they can rip your empire to shreds as they did mine for a time. Even a small horde is deadly, even more so when they land right on your doorstep.

I'll post screen shots tomorrow.

[Aenlic]

Phil, I've been playing the Volga Bulgars quite a lot recently in XL. I think you're on the right track.

But don't forget your bashkorts! They are amazingly cheap for what they can do. They have a better charge bonus than your kazanchis (5 compared to 2); and although they lack the armor piercing of the kazanchis and have lower melee and honor numbers, they have a much better defense bonus against cavalry (4, the same as the kursabays, as opposed to the 1 of the kazanchis). They're really wonderful troops, especially considering their having projectiles with the short throwing spears.

Money is always going to be a problem as the Volga Bulgars unless you can manage to take Novgorod. Novgorod is the richest of the steppe provinces and also gives you access to sea lanes for trading. As the VB, I always try to take Novgorod as soon as possible to have income. Even with that though, you're going to be hurting for cash until you can get some sea trade flowing and build up your farming in multiple provinces.

When the Mongol horde appears, it will mostly be in Khazar. Sometimes, there will also be smaller hordes in Armenia. I don't think I've ever seen them appear in Georgia; but if a horde group appears in Armenia, then you can bet they'll attack Georgia to link up with the Khazar group.

Another factor which seems to affect the horde appearance is the total number of troops fielded by the faction which owns Khazar. If you have fewer troops, fewer horde will appear. Once, I let Khazar rebel. The turn before the horde appeared, the Cumans, who had been wiped out, reappeared in Khazar which they briefly owned early in the game. The Cumand reappeared as a half stack against the rebel half-stack, and they set about besieging the rebels. So, when the Mongols appeared the next turn there was a brand new half-stack of Cumans with a half-stack of rebels in the fort. The grand total of the "vast" Mongol horde which appeared was 4 stacks.

[Peasant Phill]

But don't forget your bashkorts! They are amazingly cheap for what they can do. They have a better charge bonus than your kazanchis (5 compared to 2); and although they lack the armor piercing of the kazanchis and have lower melee and honor numbers, they have a much better defense bonus against cavalry (4, the same as the kursabays, as opposed to the 1 of the kazanchis). They're really wonderful troops, especially considering their having projectiles with the short throwing spears.

Thanks Aenlic, I didn't know that. I assumed that bashkorts were just another cheap shockunit that would struggle after the initial charge. Stupid of me (even more as I comared the SHC and BRC) not to check the unit stats. I've conquered the province (Levidea IIRC) that gives them a valour bonus so they will shine more.
Although Kazanchis will become more useful/better as time goes by and more armoured troops join the battle.

Money is always going to be a problem as the Volga Bulgars unless you can manage to take Novgorod. Novgorod is the richest of the steppe provinces and also gives you access to sea lanes for trading. As the VB, I always try to take Novgorod as soon as possible to have income. Even with that though, you're going to be hurting for cash until you can get some sea trade flowing and build up your farming in multiple provinces.

I don't have the military strenght at the moment to attack Novgorod, but They are my first target if I don't attack the Kievians first for strategical reasons (a bulge in my borders).
I have a acces to the sea now with Lesser Khazaar, Levidea and Crimmea and a shiplink to Constantinople. It helps a little but my ports in Crimmea and Levidea aren't finished yet. Once the moneyflow increases I'll build more ships to get as far as Egypt or Italy.

Another factor which seems to affect the horde appearance is the total number of troops fielded by the faction which owns Khazar. If you have fewer troops, fewer horde will appear. Once, I let Khazar rebel. The turn before the horde appeared, the Cumans, who had been wiped out, reappeared in Khazar which they briefly owned early in the game. The Cumand reappeared as a half stack against the rebel half-stack, and they set about besieging the rebels. So, when the Mongols appeared the next turn there was a brand new half-stack of Cumans with a half-stack of rebels in the fort. The grand total of the "vast" Mongol horde which appeared was 4 stacks.

I didn't know that. Oh well I'll my Khanate will survive it and if not I'll start another campaign