Scutum and Pilum Question

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Firstly, a horizontal grip provides better stability when recieving blows and the shield is held out with the forarm at right angles to the ground so the strain does go on the bicep. There is no evidence to suggest that the pila were clipped onto the shield as far as I know.

The Pila were thrown and as such were held in the sword arm for the most part. I suspect the spare was driven into the ground while the first one was thrown. Once you entered melee I can't see any way to keep ahold of the pilum, it would get shatterd by the first downward cut the scutum recieved anyway.

[Elthore]

A horizontal strap definetly gives more strain to the bicepts, the action should be very similar to lifting some weights(in the typical sense). This also allows someone to easily tilt the shield down or up depending on the impact recieved.
Regarding the pilum: i dont see a reason why they cannot be held in the shield hand, perpindicular to the scutum, much like how peltasts would carry their javelins while carrying a theuros.

^^
some educated guessing, i could be wrong

actually, one reason why they might not have been able to do this (scutum + pila) is if the strap on the scutum was very tight. This coupled with the concave bend of the shield might not leave enough room for the pila to be gripped without bending it as well.

[abou]

The reason why I say there would be more strain on the forearm is because I would imagine the shield would be held with the palm facing down rather than up. When you lift weights and grasp the bar from above with palms down that works the forearms, which is different from what is normally done with the palm up. Now, if a pilum were held in the shield-hand that would leave it along the horizontal axis and, as Elthore stated, difficult because of the curve of the scutum - if possible at all. Hence, my confusion to this.

I've looked around on reenacting websites, but haven't found much to answer my question.

Pilum are held ONTO the shield by clips aren't they?

Nothing I have read has made mention of clips except in the case of plumbatae. Personally, I don't think clips could hold the heavy pilum in place.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The shield is held with the knuckles facing outwards and it definately strains the biceps.

Theory: The curve of the Scutum might allow you to grip one Pilum at an angle and the curve would stop it falling out of your arm.

[Oldgamer]

No one should consider this as evidence, one way or the other. However, for whatever it's worth ...

I've been involved in Roman re-enactment units, in the past. The scutum is carred with the palm facing up, because the thing weighs about 27 pounds. A palm-facing down carry would put tremendous strain on the hand and lower arm. Besides which, when a "barbarian" crashes a 12-pound longsword onto your shield, it's coming out of your hand, if the palm is down.

Because of the unique shape of the pilum, "clips" really aren't needed. Once the pilum is slipped between scutum and strap, it comes to a stop at a logical point. Gravity does the rest, as Ironwall correctly theorised. I also wish to point out that the scutum and two pila is a large load for the one hand and arm, especially over a long march.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Uh 27 pounds? I would have said an Imperial Scutum was half that tops, are you sure. As to the longsword thing, aren't you going to break your elbow with that sword crashing into your shield and how are you going to manuver it or do the "face punch" with the boss?

I'm going to get hold of John and ask him about this.

Never mind, from the Ermine Stree Guard Website:

The writer's personal experience of using Legionary shields has shown that although it may, due to its curved shape, appear difficult to carry and use, this is not the case and in fact once one is experienced in its use the benefits of this type of shield for a unit operating in formation become evident. To carry the shield an overhand grip is used and the shield is held vertically at arm's length, as if one was carrying a shopping bag. Although this type of grip may appear awkward it is better than a underhand grip where the weight of the shield is continually trying to straighten the arm against the joint's natural articulation.

Using a overhand grip also has the benefit of making the shield more manoeuvrable, meaning that you can hold the shield away from the body; close in to the body; at arms length at shoulder height; above the head; in front of the body or braced against the shoulder with the top edge of the shield at eye level. Because of its curvature the shield wraps around the user providing a large degree of protection which increases when the carrier is part of a formation. Although as said, the shield is easy to carry and manoeuvre, after prolonged periods of carrying it, the arm begins to feel the weight, despite its lightweight construction.

http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/legionary%20equipment.htm

These guys have over 30 years of experience.

[Oldgamer]

Uh 27 pounds? I would have said an Imperial Scutum was half that tops, are you sure. As to the longsword thing, aren't you going to break your elbow with that sword crashing into your shield and how are you going to manuver it or do the "face punch" with the boss?

I'm going to get hold of John and ask him about this.

Never mind, from the Ermine Stree Guard Website:

http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/legionary%20equipment.htm

These guys have over 30 years of experience.

With 30 years of experience, it's a good thing they never had to go into actual combat, with the overhand grip. Based upon historical accounts and dimensions, the scutum that I used ... like the actual Roman shield ... was made of two layers of plywood, covered with thick leather, all bound by a iron strap around the edges. Mine tipped the scales at slightly over 27 pounds.

It was essential to throw your two pila before engaged in melee, because the added weight on the shield made it unwieldy, to say the least. You try holding a scutum like a shopping bag, and see if you can maintain your grip on it, when the "12-pound longsword" I mentioned comes crashing down from above.

As for the face punch, it was more of a body punch, designed to use the considerable strength of the legionary, combined with the weight of the shield, to knock the enemy backwards into the men behind him. As he bounces off of them, he receives the gladius in center-of-mass. Note that a legionary could penetrate the same or more armor than a modern .30-06 hunting rifle at 100 yards. The purpose of the what I would call the "body punch" is to set the enemy up for a thrust.

I am a member of SAFD, but like I said in the first post here, you shouldn't consider this as "evidence", especially if you're moving in a different direction with the animations.

One final thing, take something that weighs about 13.5 pounds (you mentioned half the weight that I'm talking about), and see how long you can maintain a shopping bag carry.