North Korean Missle Launched at Hawaii!

[Divinus Arma]

TOKYO — The long-range Taepodong-2 was part of a barrage of seven missiles test-fired by North Korea on Wednesday. They all fell harmlessly into the Sea of Japan, but South Korean officials said the long-range missile had malfunctioned, suggesting it was intended for a more remote target.

Japan's conservative mainstream daily Sankei said that Japanese and U.S. defense officials have concluded that the Taepodong-2 had targeted the U.S. state of Hawaii in the Pacific Ocean, after analyzing data collected from their intelligence equipment.

The newspaper quoted unidentified Japanese and U.S. government officials.

The officials decided that the missile was pointed at Hawaii from its angle immediately after launch and the altitude it reached, after analyzing data collected by destroyers equipped with the Aegis radar combat system and RC-135S electronic reconnaissance aircraft, the newspaper said.

It said the findings support a belief North Korean intended the launch as a protest over U.S. economic sanctions against the isolated regime.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202469,00.html




TOKYO (Reuters) - A North Korean missile launched on Wednesday was aimed at an area of the ocean close to Hawaii, a Japanese newspaper reported on Friday.
Experts estimated the Taepodong-2 ballistic missile to have a range of up to 6,000 km, putting Alaska within its reach. Wednesday's launch apparently failed shortly after take-off and the missile landed in the sea between the Korean peninsula and Japan, a few hundred kilometres from the launch pad.

But data from U.S. and Japanese Aegis radar-equipped destroyers and surveillance aircraft on the missile's angle of take-off and altitude indicated that it was heading for waters near Hawaii, the Sankei Shimbun reported, citing multiple sources in the United States and Japan.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060707/3/2mty8.html



I am not liking this one bit.

[Proletariat]

So was it *at* Hawaii like Fox says, or *near* Hawaii like everyone else says?

[GeneralHankerchief]

If it was in protest of economic sanctions like the article says I find that very stupid on their part.

Because instead of economic sanctions there would be a very large, international force bearing down on their butts, and they wouldn't just play havoc on the economy.

[Ice]

So was it *at* Hawaii like Fox says, or *near* Hawaii like everyone else says?

Let's hope it was just near, otherwise s*** is going to hit the fan.

Edit: Thinking about it, both are bad. If it landed in US waters that's not good.

[Csargo]

This isn't a smart move by N. Korea. I guess its like everyone else said Kim is crazy.

[Divinus Arma]

So was it *at* Hawaii like Fox says, or *near* Hawaii like everyone else says?

Does it really matter?

How would you like a NK missle landing off the coast *near*, say, San Diego?

[Proletariat]

Did they aim for our new park?



http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...0341/1001/NEWS

[Aenlic]

That's it. We should all chip in and buy these for those poor souls at Fox News.

Some of you could probably see a benefit in using them too.

[Papewaio]

The difference between near and at is the difference between a shot across the bow and a declaration of war.

NK negotiates from the hip, it ain't bright but then again it gets enough results to keep the hierachy in power.

[Divinus Arma]

How would you like a NK missle landing off the coast *near*, say, San Diego?

ahem.

Or off the coast of Brisbane for that matter?

[Ice]

If North Korea launches a missile, and it actually lands in our waters, I say we respond with a conventional missile attack the likes of which make World War II Firebombing look like the work of Ametuers. They're getting too bold.

Agreed. Diplomacy is good, but when a country starts launching missiles that could be tipped with nuclear warheads into your waters, its time to do something.

[Papewaio]

Well at least Australia can squeeze China's trade nuts to make them squeeze NK's.

[Aenlic]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling! This is just so wonderfully ironic. All those "sky is falling" comments here whenever anyone doesn't toe the Fox party line about things like global warming or pollution or anything else. And yet, here the usual suspects are, running about and squealing like 3rd grade girls who've just touched a snake during Show-and-Tell. Life is good. It just doesn't get any funnier than this.

[Csargo]

If North Korea launches a missile, and it actually lands in our waters, I say we respond with a conventional missile attack the likes of which make World War II Firebombing look like the work of Ametuers. They're getting too bold.

Agreed something must be done about this.

[Ice]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling! This is just so wonderfully ironic. All those "sky is falling" comments here whenever anyone doesn't toe the Fox party line about things like global warming or pollution or anything else. And yet, here the usual suspects are, running about and squealing like 3rd grade girls who've just touched a snake during Show-and-Tell. Life is good. It just doesn't get any funnier than this.

It's not just fox...

[Divinus Arma]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling! This is just so wonderfully ironic. All those "sky is falling" comments here whenever anyone doesn't toe the Fox party line about things like global warming or pollution or anything else. And yet, here the usual suspects are, running about and squealing like 3rd grade girls who've just touched a snake during Show-and-Tell. Life is good. It just doesn't get any funnier than this.

Flaming posters with no factual retort.

I posted two articles from two seperate sources.

You are far smarter than this Aenlic. Give us a real argument and elevate the debate. Thanks.

[Aenlic]

The factual retort is in the other threads, Eclectic, which you know full well.

For example.

The missile failed.

The missile was not under control when it failed.

The North Koreans don't have, and probably won't have for some time, a nuclear device which can be mounted on any of their missiles which would still work when it reached the target. As I said in another thread, it took us 14 years to develop our first ICBM, which was huge compared to the TP-2, and that was with a dedicated budget many times larger than the entire NK economy.

I don't see why I should have to come repeat this stuff - again, to satisfy what is basically a "sky is falling" thread. If the Right wants to use "the sky is falling" as a rhetorical device, then I can too. Simply as that. And be very careful before saying that "the sky is falling" isn't a favorite around here.

And besides, I'm pretty sure if you all pool your funds, you can get these at a volume discount.

[Csargo]

I'de rather not wear an aluminum foil hat thanks.

[Aenlic]

But it'll protect you from evil communist lefty-liberal TV and Hollywood rays beamed at your skull in an attempt to make you read Mao. And those crafty North Koreans might be launching mind-control missiles which could hit Hawaii! (More likely than a nuclear tipped TP-2 reaching it). You must plan ahead! Buy one that will fit over the NBC suit which Proletariat says are easy to put on! Even during the midst of a North Korean NBC attack!

[Blodrast]

Just sword-rattling - moreover, I highly doubt that the North Koreans actually intended the missile to hit Hawaii.
I'm pretty sure that, had they actually wanted to declare war, and start a nuclear war, it wouldn't have been 7 crappy missiles failing all over the place. Dontcha think ?

Besides, keep in mind that they're crazy, not stupid.
This was just a show: "Rook at my great barrz of fire !"
I don't think they actually took the chance to, you know, mistakenly start a nuclear war. Give them more credit.

[Blodrast]

One more thing: this saber-rattling probably reached its purpose: they got all the publicity they wanted, and now they'll have a slightly stronger position in the negotiations: they will generously "concede" to stop such tests and displays, maybe even scrap some old armament as a gesture of goodwill, in exchange for - whatever the heck they are interested in, economic help, getting people off their backs for a while longer, whatever.

[LeftEyeNine]

Oh well around 3-4 months ago, a similar scenario was played and it was told that some Syrian missiles had bombed somewhere in the Turkish borders close to Syria.

Israel and USA love disinformation and manipulation before starting out something. This can be all about creating the causes of war, dragging in another ally by a "wicked" force and watch the game as it boils there.

Luckily that news was falsified -probably by our intelligence, I guess. Nothing serious happened.

North Korea may be dirty but it all seems irrational that they would try to bomb Hawaii resulting in a war against USA.

Come on, how many of you can really believe this ?

[Blodrast]

Unlike some certain other countries, our press (Fox News excepting) is free.

Anyhow, all this talk of "They won't have nukes for YEARS!" is absolutely ridiculous. What do you propose to do? Wait for them to actually get them? And then what?

This is not Iraq. This is not a hypothetical. They have nukes. They are trying to put them on long-range missiles. They are just crazy enough to go through with it.

The next time they pull a stunt like this, we should blow up every power plant, nuclear facility, and government building in that entire country.

The sky is falling ! (sorry, Aenlic, couldn't help it).
Come on, Gelatinous Cube, nobody's denying they're crazy, or that they have nukes.
And of course one shouldn't just bend over and hand the lube tube.
But, you also have to realize that bombing the hell out of everybody who gives you a dirty look is not a solution, either.
Nobody in that area likes, or is comfy, with NK. China, Japan, SK (duh) are only a few (who matter). So rest assured that they (as well as your military satellites, etc) will keep a keen eye on the North Koreans.
Besides, what makes you think that they are eager to start a war with the US?
They have several juicier targets nearby... What, because they launched "a missile at Hawaii ?" Please. So they launched several at Japan. Have they started a war with Japan ?

Again, imo, they are just trying to show off, both for gaining/maintaining internal support, and to gain a stronger position at the negotiation table.

Besides, you're intelligent enough to realize that you cannot stop _everybody_ from _ever_ getting nukes. Technology advances - the US will get some uber missiles, the others will be some decades or whatever behind, and will eventually get what the US has now.
You simply cannot control all the crazies, the dictatorships, and whatever other nutjob regimes are out there. And you can't just bomb them out just like that, either. And the US and the entire world will have to deal with this in a different way.

[Blodrast]

Anyone who has followed my politics on this forum knows I have trouble reconciling my Libertarian beleifs with the belief that America needs to do its best to remain #1.

I have never had a problem with playing World Police, so long as it is done in a transparent and non-hypocritical manner. If the President said "Hey, dudes. We're gonna go stomp on all the other nations of the world in order to make America better." I'd be all for it.

North Korea is case in point for me, really. They are a wild-card, very close to our interests, that espouses no real freedom for its people or democratic values at all. And they have nukes.

As a threat, they should be nuetralized. IMO the best way to do it would be to pull out of the Middle-East, put all our assets in South Korea, Bomb the hell out of the country, invade, and put it all under the control of South Korea when we're done.

We could keep China at bay easily, by threatening to get that $200 Billion worth of cheap goods elsewhere. Even temporarily, it'd send their economy into a tail spin, and they don't want that.

Sigh. Ok, one at a time.

I absolutely see your point about America wanting to remain #1. It's perfectly normal. But where the hell does NK come into the equation ??? What does NK have to do with the US'wish tostay on top ?? Don't tell me you're afraid that you'll lose the top dog position from North Korea...

As a threat, they should be nuetralized.

But they are not a threat ! That's the whole idea. Ok, they are a threat, to SK, to Japan, etc, but not to the US. Not yet, anyway, and they're years away from it.

We could keep China at bay easily, by threatening to get that $200 Billion worth of cheap goods elsewhere. Even temporarily, it'd send their economy into a tail spin, and they don't want that.

Let me add to that:

Even temporarily, it'd send your economy into a tail spin, and you don't want that.

Btw, Cube, please don't take it personally, it's not like I have anything against you, or anything like that (I am saying that because we had another discussion where we were on opposing sides recently, in the "Mercury in the fish and the truth about advertising" thread).
Ok ? I hope you didn't perceive it otherwise.

[Navaros]

Not like it matters which sea the missile was aiming for, since the USA's military is stretched way too thin and it's budget is all shot to Hell thanks to the war on Iraq, hence the USA can't do anything about NK at the moment.

[discovery1]

Hmmm

Methinks that if this is true it is 'only' an attempt to intimidate the US. Demonstrating that the missile could reach Hawaii would help their position no?
Or possibly make it much much worse.

[Csargo]

We wouldn't be as hurt as the Chinese. We have the pull the potential to alleviate the problem long enough to ruin China while keeping ourselves afloat. Worst case, both our economies are ruined beyond any hope of repair in a timely fashion. China wouldn't risk that, either.

I don't think that the US would risk that.

[Samurai Waki]

I Can Just See it Now.

Kim all cozy in his palace, looking at 128 inch LCD Monitor Displaying a Map of the World.

"How Will I teach these Americans a lesson?" He paces back and forth, running his fingers through his 50s Style Elvis Presley haircut, adjust his glasses and frowns.

"The Only Way We can teach these Americans a Lesson is to attack Pearl Harbour!"

[Aenlic]

I hate to admit it, but I think that Bush is actually handling it rather well; at least, if this CNN article is true. I didn't watch Larry King drool and babble at him. Both of them give me a rash when I see them. The thought of King and Bush babbling at each other was too much to handle.

However, Bush-hating vitriol out of the way, the idea that we should treat this with a sort of international response to a childish call for attention seems about right to me.

Clearly Kim is doing the chest-thumping primate thing. A nuclear "look at me!" combined with a need to maintain status with his military.

I think that now, Kim will be facing even more pressure to return to the multilateral talks. And China will be facing more diplomatic pressure as well to lean on NK in that regard.

The last thing we'll do is respond militarily. That gives Kim too much return on his investment in the chest-thumping. Short of us turning NK into a radioactive glass parking lot, I don't think Kim really sees much negative to being attacked by the U.S. at all. Unless it's a full-on hardcore all-or-nothing attack, he doesn't really lose much. And he gets to lay claim to "injured" party status, however wrong and ridiculous. Status is not something we'll be handing him any time soon.

And the second to the last thing we'll do is agree to bilateral talks and give him rewards for his behavior.

It'll be the multilateral talks.

[Keba]

Japan and South Korea are very important to American interests. Important enough to risk war for.

A war in which, if I may remind you, they would get axed, along with all the forces you base in SK or Japan. Why? Because, while NK doesn't have nukes that can be mounted on an ICBM, they do have nukes.

So, will you still think that they are important allies when Seoul and Tokyo have been turned to glass?

I would advise the Americans to think of their allies for a change. Not everyone will go around risking their neck just because America says so. An America which is not even threatened by the country in question.