Balkans and Ottomans

[LeftEyeNine]

Ottoman rule in Balkans has always been a matter of discussion. Some sum it up with "toleration" some do it by "destruction".

So -especially our native Balkan friends- what do you think about this long period? What are you told, what did you read, what did you see, what do you think ?

The topic is open to everyone having an idea, of course. Discussion will just be more conclusive as friends from the area join in.

[Franconicus]

LEN,

I do not know enough to deem of the Ottomanian occupation of the Balkans. (The occupation of Germany by the Turks started long afterwards )

I just want to add something I watched durig a holiday trip some years ago. We went to Crete. I knew that there had been a partisan war in WW2 and that the Germans made some terrible things. I expected that not all Cretians would welcome the Germans, especially those who have no financial benefit. However, I was wrong. These people gave us a warm welcome.
I was very surprised when we visited an abbey in the mountains. It was a bit of that Alamo story. Greece freedom fighters had been slaughtered by the Ottomanians there. They still showed the bones of the dead ones.

They still hate the Turks like crazy while they love the Germans.

That really confused me.

[Cronos Impera]

Well, I can say it was half-beneficial for the Romanian Principalities. The romanian voievodes of Wallachia and Moldavia, along with the Principe of Transylvannia managed to obtain, through wars and diplomacy what no other Balkan state did,a secure autonomy/independence.
Though the Ottomans ware almost always at war with the Romanian principalities and demanded obscene taxes ( Harachi, bribery, Youth for the Jannisary force) it was actually the Christian powers that harmed the Romanian Principalities the most from The Hapsburg Empire (Gen.Basta assasinated Michael the Brave before he could properly unite the Principalities), Poland, Hungary ( Well, we all know romanians and hungarinas don't get along very well), Russia (for seizing Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina + triggering the 1907 Peasant Uprising which took the lives of more than 1000 peasants).
Compared to this "Christian" powers the Ottoman Empire is better as an enemy.

[Rosacrux redux]

Some general thoughts, as a starting point:

The Ottoman rule was not a static thing. It changed during the time. The Ottoman society and it's power structure was one made with a sole aim - to allow the Ottoman upper class to prosper and thrive without having to work.

The whole taxation basis, production base, organization was structured around that nice little concept.

The Ottomans did not convert en masse people after their expansion phase (Albanians and Bosniaks are the exception here) because they didn't want to lose the taxation base of the christians.

The Devsirme practice was a particularly disgusting one, although its range and calibre has been often exagerated. Truth is some Christians welcomed the abduction of their child by the Ottomans. SOME. Most considered it a hideous blood-tax, and mourned the loss of their child just as it was killed.

The Ottoman rule was typically opressive for the period when it started (some might say less oppressive than the Byzantine rule in the 11th and 12th century and they will be correct) but it became overly oppressive in the late 18th and the whole 19th century. The abysmall hate of the Cretans for the Turks comes from precisely this period: the Cretans revolted half a dozen times during the 19th century trying to get rid of their opressors, and each revolt was put down more brutally, culminating in the massive massacres of the 1870s (more than 30.000 christian Cretans died during those).

[DukeofSerbia]

Ottoman rule in Balkans has always been a matter of discussion. Some sum it up with "toleration" some do it by "destruction".

So -especially our native Balkan friends- what do you think about this long period? What are you told, what did you read, what did you see, what do you think ?

The topic is open to everyone having an idea, of course. Discussion will just be more conclusive as friends from the area join in.

I will later today add my view detailed. Ottomans (in Serbia we call them simply Turks) were the most hated nation by Serbs over 500 years. Unfortunately, many Serbs Moslems were highly positioned in Ottoman hierarchy in time of Suleyman I Magnificent.

[Prince Cobra]

Duke of Serbia- Ottoman empire is not just a Tukish empire - it is not national empire but an empire of Muslims. So there is a significant difference.

IMHO it has many drawbacks. Balkan countries became in the middle of nowhere. Both in economy and the history. And there were even more to this - to some degree in the mentality as well.
To sum up: without the Ottomans the Balkans would be better. This is my personal opinion.

[Sarmatian]

This is very hard question to answer. At first, ottomans were viewed as barbarians and devils from the east by the serbs. After serbia was conquered, the opinion among the serb peasants changed. The most important reason probably was the ottoman empire imposed much lower taxes than serbian feudal rulers. Another reasons were that ottomans were clean, honest and brave. Opportunists changed their religion to get a high ranking position. Those men, serbian moslems, were usually worse than the turks.
So it can be said that at first there was a mutual respect between serbs and turks.

But later, terribe atrocities were done. Murders, rape etc.. Ottomans burned the sacred remains of Saint Sava, founder of the serbian church, the built the infamous Skull Tower and so on.

[DukeofSerbia]

This is very hard question to answer. At first, ottomans were viewed as barbarians and devils from the east by the serbs. After serbia was conquered, the opinion among the serb peasants changed. The most important reason probably was the ottoman empire imposed much lower taxes than serbian feudal rulers. Another reasons were that ottomans were clean, honest and brave. Opportunists changed their religion to get a high ranking position. Those men, serbian moslems, were usually worse than the turks.
So it can be said that at first there was a mutual respect between serbs and turks.

But later, terribe atrocities were done. Murders, rape etc.. Ottomans burned the sacred remains of Saint Sava, founder of the serbian church, the built the infamous Skull Tower and so on.

What I bolded is apsolutely not true. And why some many Serbs after fall of Serbia migrated into Hungary, if under Ottomans was good?

See my next post.

[DukeofSerbia]

When Serbian despotat fall in 1459, many Serbs fled to Hungary, especially soldiers and nobility. Some 200 000 Serbs migrated into Hungary between 1478 and 1482. Hungarians accepted Serbian nobility and admitted their ranks which they had in Serbia. And Serbian despots (Brankovic’s family) ruled in parts of Hungary as Hungarian vassals. Hungarian King Matthias Corvinus was great friend of Serbs.
I will only mention that many Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries were annihilated to ground by Ottomans and some of them Ottomans transformed into mosques after conquest.
Later when Habsburg family became rulers of Hungary, Serbs fought for them. King Rudolph organized Military frontier in 1579 where Serbs were settled to fight against Ottomans and Serbs were under direct command of Emperor. And again and again, Serbs migrated into Habsburg dominion. And Habsburg used Serbs until they needed us.
Not to mention two great migrations of Serbs in 1690 and 1739 under Patriarchs.

Long story, but I will try to add as much as possible if is needed.

[DukeofSerbia]

Duke of Serbia- Ottoman empire is not just a Tukish empire - it is not national empire but an empire of Muslims. So there is a significant difference.

You didn't understand what I ment. I ment that Ottomans were called in Serbia simply Turks. I agree that was Moslem state.

IMHO it has many drawbacks. Balkan countries became in the middle of nowhere. Both in economy and the history. And there were even more to this - to some degree in the mentality as well.
To sum up: without the Ottomans the Balkans would be better. This is my personal opinion.

Agree.

[Sarmatian]

When Serbian despotat fall in 1459, many Serbs fled to Hungary, especially soldiers and nobility. Some 200 000 Serbs migrated into Hungary between 1478 and 1482. Hungarians accepted Serbian nobility and admitted their ranks which they had in Serbia. And Serbian despots (Brankovic’s family) ruled in parts of Hungary as Hungarian vassals. Hungarian King Matthias Corvinus was great friend of Serbs.
I will only mention that many Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries were annihilated to ground by Ottomans and some of them Ottomans transformed into mosques after conquest.
Later when Habsburg family became rulers of Hungary, Serbs fought for them. King Rudolph organized Military frontier in 1579 where Serbs were settled to fight against Ottomans and Serbs were under direct command of Emperor. And again and again, Serbs migrated into Habsburg dominion. And Habsburg used Serbs until they needed us.
Not to mention two great migrations of Serbs in 1690 and 1739 under Patriarchs.

Long story, but I will try to add as much as possible if is needed.

I was talking about serbian commoners and not about serbian nobility.
Taxes of the ottoman empire were significantly lower than taxes of the serbian feudal lords. That is a fact. If you don't like it, tough luck.
Also serbs migrated because they were afraid. In most cases that fear was justified but not always. Hungary, and later habzburg empire, and even later russian empire incited serbian uprisings against ottoman empire, and when they lost the conveniently withdrew (sometimes together with serbian nobility) and left common men to fend for themselves. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that turkish rule was good (I consider any foreign rule bad by definition), but living under habzburg empire who used you as a human shield against the ottoman empire was better just because habzburgs were christians? Also, you are from vojvodina (northern part of serbia). Didn't your grandparents tell you about heavy magyarization of the serbs in vojvodina?
Again, that is better only because hungarians are christians?

[kataphraktoi]

Taxes were often high because they were spent defending against Ottoman aggression.

Think about it:

1) Ottomans raid your territory, cripple your sources of revenue
2) With crippled revenue source, the only thing to do is increase taxes which leads to a vicious cycle

Once Serbia was subdued were taxes lowered as it wasn't being ravaged by Turks anymore.

The Balkans recovered under Ottoman rule because it wasn't attacked and ravaged as an enemy. As a subject region, it is in the interest of the Ottomans to NOT ravage and attack it.

[DukeofSerbia]

I was talking about serbian commoners and not about serbian nobility.
Taxes of the ottoman empire were significantly lower than taxes of the serbian feudal lords. That is a fact. If you don't like it, tough luck.
Also serbs migrated because they were afraid. In most cases that fear was justified but not always. Hungary, and later habzburg empire, and even later russian empire incited serbian uprisings against ottoman empire, and when they lost the conveniently withdrew (sometimes together with serbian nobility) and left common men to fend for themselves. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that turkish rule was good (I consider any foreign rule bad by definition), but living under habzburg empire who used you as a human shield against the ottoman empire was better just because habzburgs were christians? Also, you are from vojvodina (northern part of serbia). Didn't your grandparents tell you about heavy magyarization of the serbs in vojvodina?
Again, that is better only because hungarians are christians?

Those 200 000 Sebrs who migrated weren't nobility as it is impossible and you know that. Maybe 10% max were nobility.

I don't talk about Habsburg rule in XIX century and begging of XX. Under protection of Habsburg's rulers and Military frontier (Vojna granica or Krajina) Serbs survived islamisation and union with Rome. As you know Serbs in Military frontier were under direct control of Habsburgs in Vienna. And you know that later Hungarian and Croatina nobility tried to impose taxes to Serbian peasents but Habsburgs refused. And that's one of reasons why Croats don't like us.


And I agree with kataphraktoi.

[Sarmatian]

Taxes were often high because they were spent defending against Ottoman aggression.

Think about it:

1) Ottomans raid your territory, cripple your sources of revenue
2) With crippled revenue source, the only thing to do is increase taxes which leads to a vicious cycle

Once Serbia was subdued were taxes lowered as it wasn't being ravaged by Turks anymore.

The Balkans recovered under Ottoman rule because it wasn't attacked and ravaged as an enemy. As a subject region, it is in the interest of the Ottomans to NOT ravage and attack it.

Taxes were high even before ottoman raids. Czar Dusan had a standing army made of veteran (mostly german) mercenaries. Do you think they come cheap? It was pretty rare to have a large standing army in europe at that time, and serbia had a standing army about 12-15000 men strong.

[Sarmatian]

Those 200 000 Sebrs who migrated weren't nobility as it is impossible and you know that. Maybe 10% max were nobility.

I don't talk about Habsburg rule in XIX century and begging of XX. Under protection of Habsburg's rulers and Military frontier (Vojna granica or Krajina) Serbs survived islamisation and union with Rome. As you know Serbs in Military frontier were under direct control of Habsburgs in Vienna. And you know that later Hungarian and Croatina nobility tried to impose taxes to Serbian peasents but Habsburgs refused. And that's one of reasons why Croats don't like us.


And I agree with kataphraktoi.

Yes, of course I know that. But you also know that 200,000 is just a small percentage of entire serbian population. The majority of serbs still lived under ottoman empire.
Yep, it was a fair trade, we supply you with weapons, you don't have to pay taxes, just be there if ottomans attack. And later, when ottoman empire was no longer a threat, we are going to try to magyarize you, because reemerging serbia is now a threat. At least two of those migration you mentioned happened because austria went to war against ottoman empire. They incited serbs to help them, and after they lost, they have withdrawn. Fearing turkish reprisal, serbs, quite naturally migrated to austria-hungary.
Not everything is black and white, expecially in war and politics...

[DukeofSerbia]

Taxes were high even before ottoman raids. Czar Dusan had a standing army made of veteran (mostly german) mercenaries. Do you think they come cheap? It was pretty rare to have a large standing army in europe at that time, and serbia had a standing army about 12-15000 men strong.

The main revenue from the time of King Milutin was from golden and silver mines and it was not from taxes. And from customs (remember all those trade agreements with Dubrovnik).

[kataphraktoi]

Sarmatian, you still did not take into account the crippling affects of Ottoman raids and attacks in driving taxation up...

Byzantium is a good case, taxation was crippling, the money was spent on hiring mercenaries for defense and stupid civil wars too. Moreover, revenue raised was from already ravaged territories like Thrace.

[Sarmatian]

You two are not giving up, are you? Okay. Turkish raids probably did have some effect on taxes. But, as far I know, serbian rulers took 1/5 of everything while ottomans took 1/10. Again, as far as I know, 1/5 was the standard practice for all serbian feudal lords, even before ottomans came to balkans. That only goes for the first period of ottoman rule.

@Duke
Main source of revenue doesn't have anything to do with how high are the taxes. Mining was very developed in serbia at that time, I agree, but that doesn't automaticaly mean the taxes were low, does it? Dubrovnik paid special tax, I think it even had a name, (I am not sure, it's been a while since I read serbian history books), to remain nominally independent.